The debates continue. In his book, Preparing to Teach Writing, Williams presents us with a lot of information about the strength and weakness of everything dealing with how to teach writing. He first informs us of the many controversies about which rhetorical theory is the most effective approach to teach writing. From there he discusses what the best practices are to use to foster better writing. Next, he deliberates the phonics-whole-language debate and how this is important with respect to writing. Then he stirs up controversy about why teaching grammar does not lead to improved writing. Finally he provides us with the debate over whether holistic scoring or portfolio grading is the most effective way to assess and evaluate writing. After analyzing all this, I appreciate that Williams has equipped future teachers with all the different methods for teaching, assessing and evaluating writing but hopefully it will be easier to incorporate some of this into practice than it is to read about it.
I have always thought that holistic approaches to most things work better than one approach. In the medical field for example, most doctors treat their patient’s illnesses with medicine or surgery. They often don’t see the patient as a whole person they just see illness and treat its symptoms. Holistic medicine emphasizes the need to look at the whole person including analysis of physical, nutritional, environmental, emotional, social, spiritual, and lifestyle values. In medicine by looking at all the parts that make up the whole person a more effective treatment can be implemented to enhance the patients recovery. This makes sense to me in assessing and evaluating writing. Writing should be examined as a whole and not broken into parts where it gets measured as a set of subskills rather than as “a unit of expression”(318).
The most important aspect of holistic medicine is that it focuses on education and responsibility for personal efforts to achieve balance and well - being. This statement sounded like what Williams was saying about using holistic scoring in the classroom. It provides a way for students to gain an increased sense of control over their own writing by taking part in assessing it (318). However, training students to evaluate each other’s writing is a bit risky for the various reasons mentioned i.e. that students aren’t as mature or experienced as teachers (329). Even in grad school I have had a hard time evaluating the writing of my peers due to my lack of knowledge and experience doing it.
I do like the idea of scoring with some kind of rubric because I think this allows the student to know how close they came to the goals of the writing assignment, and it provides those assessing and evaluating the work (students or teachers) to know what they should be looking for in the writing that they are evaluating. This helps both the writer and evaluator to be thinking along the same lines. Setting up the rubrics and teaching students what good writing is are the problems as well as the amount of time needed to do this properly.
The holistic approach is time consuming for the teacher at the beginning when all the ‘socialization’ is occurring but according to Williams, it is critical for the entire procedure to be successful (320). So while I do like this approach I think it has some critical flaws that would make it hard to use. It seems hard enough to be a teacher trying to figure out how to assess and evaluate writing, let alone be a teacher teaching students how to do it. Also the teacher must be able to evaluate how well her students are evaluating other student’s work. It seems like this type of approach might work better for upper grades and college.
Portfolio grading also allows students to be responsible for their personal efforts in writing by allowing them to choose their best work to be evaluated. In this approach other teachers evaluate the writing. The advantage this has is that it forces the student to focus on an audience outside of their own teacher and their own peers (330). I like that this approach also uses rubrics to assess writing. This approach seems like it would work well in most situations as long as the teachers are trained properly and follow protocol.
One thing about both of these approaches to assessing and evaluating writing is that they are not entirely objective. It would be great if all of this were as easy and objective as teaching, assessing and evaluating athletes in a running sport like track or cross-country. It is true there are many methods that coaches can use to train runners to become better, but the assessing and evaluation process is so much easier. Time over a certain distance is what is measured. A stop- watch is the tool used for assessment. The coach times the run from point a to point b and then collects that information for evaluation. The evaluation process usually is determined by the standards set to qualify for some race. There is very little about this process that is subjective.Unfortuanetly the same isn't true for assessing and evaluating writing.
Wednesday, October 28, 2009
Errors of Assessment and Evaluation
The first thought that popped into my mind after reading this final chapter of Williams was “Thank goodness I decided the first weekend of freshmen year not to pursue education.” Everything we’ve read and discussed this semester has left me with the impression that teaching is a much more challenging profession than I ever could have imagined. The topic of assessments and evaluations, I think, confirms this. At the start of the reading, Williams brings up the issue of teacher “accountability,” which is something that I had not really contemplated previously (301). School districts place a great deal of pressure on their educators to make sure that students can pass federally mandated standardized tests. The consequence, as I’ve seen with my two younger brothers in a public high school, is that students and teachers become overwhelmed by these assessments and the emphasis on rich academic experiences gets misplaced; keeping scores up and maintaining federal funding are the bottom line.
Like some people have already commented, I, too, feel that standardized tests (like the SAT) are not the best measurement of one’s academic abilities. I always did well in school, but I felt that my successes in class weren’t reflected in the scores I received from such tests. In addition, they hardly ever had a beneficial effect on my psyche as a student. So I find it hard to understand why the U.S. educational system persists on distributing them when they clearly aren’t doing much to improve students’ educational experience (especially when compared to other nations who do not waste the time/money on similar assessments, yet still exceed the achievement levels of American students).
The other major focus of the chapter, on holistic grading, did not sit well with me either. The whole idea of letting students grade one another’s work based on their practice with sample works and the construction of rubrics seems unfeasible. I do not personally have much experience with this method of grading, but from what I’ve seen over my years in school, most students just don’t care about a classmate’s work. And when they are forced to assign a grade to someone else’s paper, they are likely to inflate it. Part of a teacher’s job is to assess and evaluate his/her students’ work; I don’t feel this responsibility should be passed on to students. Out of all the options for grading mentioned, I liked the idea of portfolios best. Having two/three teachers come together to collaborate their courses would be a great way to reduce paper loads, combine and increase the caliber of experience with grading, and give students more control over their grades (as long as teachers follow the standards of their portfolio assessment training). Still, it’s fairly obvious that no foolproof method of how to conduct evaluations and assessments exists. Subjectivity will always prevent any absolute, “fair,” and straightforward assessment of writing.
Like some people have already commented, I, too, feel that standardized tests (like the SAT) are not the best measurement of one’s academic abilities. I always did well in school, but I felt that my successes in class weren’t reflected in the scores I received from such tests. In addition, they hardly ever had a beneficial effect on my psyche as a student. So I find it hard to understand why the U.S. educational system persists on distributing them when they clearly aren’t doing much to improve students’ educational experience (especially when compared to other nations who do not waste the time/money on similar assessments, yet still exceed the achievement levels of American students).
The other major focus of the chapter, on holistic grading, did not sit well with me either. The whole idea of letting students grade one another’s work based on their practice with sample works and the construction of rubrics seems unfeasible. I do not personally have much experience with this method of grading, but from what I’ve seen over my years in school, most students just don’t care about a classmate’s work. And when they are forced to assign a grade to someone else’s paper, they are likely to inflate it. Part of a teacher’s job is to assess and evaluate his/her students’ work; I don’t feel this responsibility should be passed on to students. Out of all the options for grading mentioned, I liked the idea of portfolios best. Having two/three teachers come together to collaborate their courses would be a great way to reduce paper loads, combine and increase the caliber of experience with grading, and give students more control over their grades (as long as teachers follow the standards of their portfolio assessment training). Still, it’s fairly obvious that no foolproof method of how to conduct evaluations and assessments exists. Subjectivity will always prevent any absolute, “fair,” and straightforward assessment of writing.
Looks like I'm a Perfect Fit for Teaching...
Initially, I wasn’t sure how I wanted to attack this blog. That is, until I came across something interesting (at least to me) that Williams brought up in our reading. He mentions a scholar by the name of Ed White, who argues that “many teachers know almost nothing about writing assessment and that large numbers of them are arrogant about their ignorance. The tendency is to give little thought to what is being measured when putting grades on papers.”
Then I thought to myself, “Gee, that sounds a lot like me.” Not that I’m arrogant, that’s not what I’m trying to say here at all (although there are some who might disagree with that statement). The thing is, I worry that as I get closer and closer to student teaching and beyond, I feel as though I am not yet prepared to handle some – but, not all – of the responsibilities associated with the teaching profession.
While I feel that most of what we’ve read and discussed in this class has been valuable to some degree, I don’t feel confident in my ability to step up and do the job. And this worries me, because I am on pace to begin student teaching somewhere next semester. For instance, not until today (when I read this chapter) can I recall learning how to assess and grade a piece of student writing. To be honest, I still don’t have the foggiest idea how to effectively look at a piece of writing (as in something that is not my own) and tell someone how they can improve it. Whenever I read something, I know that bells and whistles seem to go off in my head when I read something that doesn’t seem to make sense. Basically, I can tell if the writing is good, or if it needs work. That’s the easy part. But, what seems to give me trouble is that next step, the one that involves providing feedback or offering suggestions that would help someone else improve whatever it is that I’ve just read. Having to articulate these thoughts and ideas is tough, and it’s only made tougher by the fact that I don’t feel like I am qualified to do the job.
I guess what I am getting at here is that I can be an effective reader, but I not so sure I can teach someone else how to write – at least not yet. I have been at Penn State for almost two years now, and I believe this is the first time that I’ve actually come across a rubric before (not counting those that professors include in their syllabi, of course).
Needless to say, this worries me quite a bit. I’ve found the whole teaching process to be an exceedingly difficult job – something that leaves me physically and emotionally drained on the days when I take part in my teaching observations. Right now, that only takes up two days out of my week; how on earth am I going to survive an entire semester of student-teaching come January?
Either I am going to learn fast (which I what I think, or hope, will occur), or all of my hair will turn completely white (e.g. Anderson Cooper) and I will have to check myself into a psychiatric hospital (so I exaggerate a little, but who doesn’t?). But, seriously, I am very apprehensive about the entire process. I really don’t feel that I am ready to teach yet, and I am starting to wonder if anyone is ever really prepared to do so when they leave college. If my observation experience has taught me anything, it’s this: I know nothing…about teaching.
On the bright side, I have discovered that I am capable of learning new things. And, I am not afraid to fail, which, for someone like myself, has its advantages. Every time I step into the classroom I feel like I am steadily gaining more knowledge of it – plus, I seem to add a few more embarrassing stories to my “Things to Discuss among Friends” file that I keep stashed away in the nether region of my mind. That’s always a bonus.
However, I don’t want to be among that “large number” of teachers who are either ill-equipped or too arrogant to realize that they cannot effectively assess their students’ writing or teach them how to write. I love writing, and the last thing that I want to do as a teacher is scare some poor student away from it because I couldn’t handle my own responsibilities.
I do what I can by trying to learn as much as possible while I’m here at Penn State, but I feel that my “real” education is out there waiting for me at some yet-to-be-determined school district – assuming of course, that I can find a job again.
Then I thought to myself, “Gee, that sounds a lot like me.” Not that I’m arrogant, that’s not what I’m trying to say here at all (although there are some who might disagree with that statement). The thing is, I worry that as I get closer and closer to student teaching and beyond, I feel as though I am not yet prepared to handle some – but, not all – of the responsibilities associated with the teaching profession.
While I feel that most of what we’ve read and discussed in this class has been valuable to some degree, I don’t feel confident in my ability to step up and do the job. And this worries me, because I am on pace to begin student teaching somewhere next semester. For instance, not until today (when I read this chapter) can I recall learning how to assess and grade a piece of student writing. To be honest, I still don’t have the foggiest idea how to effectively look at a piece of writing (as in something that is not my own) and tell someone how they can improve it. Whenever I read something, I know that bells and whistles seem to go off in my head when I read something that doesn’t seem to make sense. Basically, I can tell if the writing is good, or if it needs work. That’s the easy part. But, what seems to give me trouble is that next step, the one that involves providing feedback or offering suggestions that would help someone else improve whatever it is that I’ve just read. Having to articulate these thoughts and ideas is tough, and it’s only made tougher by the fact that I don’t feel like I am qualified to do the job.
I guess what I am getting at here is that I can be an effective reader, but I not so sure I can teach someone else how to write – at least not yet. I have been at Penn State for almost two years now, and I believe this is the first time that I’ve actually come across a rubric before (not counting those that professors include in their syllabi, of course).
Needless to say, this worries me quite a bit. I’ve found the whole teaching process to be an exceedingly difficult job – something that leaves me physically and emotionally drained on the days when I take part in my teaching observations. Right now, that only takes up two days out of my week; how on earth am I going to survive an entire semester of student-teaching come January?
Either I am going to learn fast (which I what I think, or hope, will occur), or all of my hair will turn completely white (e.g. Anderson Cooper) and I will have to check myself into a psychiatric hospital (so I exaggerate a little, but who doesn’t?). But, seriously, I am very apprehensive about the entire process. I really don’t feel that I am ready to teach yet, and I am starting to wonder if anyone is ever really prepared to do so when they leave college. If my observation experience has taught me anything, it’s this: I know nothing…about teaching.
On the bright side, I have discovered that I am capable of learning new things. And, I am not afraid to fail, which, for someone like myself, has its advantages. Every time I step into the classroom I feel like I am steadily gaining more knowledge of it – plus, I seem to add a few more embarrassing stories to my “Things to Discuss among Friends” file that I keep stashed away in the nether region of my mind. That’s always a bonus.
However, I don’t want to be among that “large number” of teachers who are either ill-equipped or too arrogant to realize that they cannot effectively assess their students’ writing or teach them how to write. I love writing, and the last thing that I want to do as a teacher is scare some poor student away from it because I couldn’t handle my own responsibilities.
I do what I can by trying to learn as much as possible while I’m here at Penn State, but I feel that my “real” education is out there waiting for me at some yet-to-be-determined school district – assuming of course, that I can find a job again.
Assessing writing
What makes good writing? How can teachers determine what good writing is? Teachers have to assess writing on a student’s writing ability. They should be making their assessments on what they taught their students. Williams says that growth in writing is a slow process. I agree with this statement. Every class will have good, average, and poor writers. Hopefully the average and poor writers will improve throughout the school year. I think the subject matter plays a major role in whether or not the student writes a good paper. If the student is interested in the subject, they will have better papers. If they are not interested in the topic, they will most likely not do as well.
I think rough drafts are important in the writing process. The teacher can make comments on the rough drafts. This will hopefully give the student ideas on how to make improvements to their papers. Peer editing is also a good idea.
Teachers should get together and make come up with a standard grading rubric. They all should grade similarly. One teacher might give a paper an A, while another teacher might give it a C. That is unfair to the student. They think they are doing well because one of their teachers gives them A’s, while another teacher constantly gives them C’s.
An assessment should be measured on what was taught in the class. This means teachers should teach to the test. It isn’t entirely the teacher’s fault when their students don’t do well on the standardized tests. The bigger problem is the social issues. Yes, there are some lazy teachers, but what about the good ones? Some teachers care about their students, and some just do their job.
I am not so sure I agree with holistic scoring. I don’t believe students should grade each other’s papers. This is not fair to the good writers. I will take the advice from other students, but I want my teacher to have the final say in my grade. I always read the comments that my teachers would leave on my papers. I kept them in mind for future papers. An issue that comes up is the paper load. It takes a long time to grade papers that are more than three pages. Teachers should assign shorter papers more often rather than lengthy papers once in a while.
I think rough drafts are important in the writing process. The teacher can make comments on the rough drafts. This will hopefully give the student ideas on how to make improvements to their papers. Peer editing is also a good idea.
Teachers should get together and make come up with a standard grading rubric. They all should grade similarly. One teacher might give a paper an A, while another teacher might give it a C. That is unfair to the student. They think they are doing well because one of their teachers gives them A’s, while another teacher constantly gives them C’s.
An assessment should be measured on what was taught in the class. This means teachers should teach to the test. It isn’t entirely the teacher’s fault when their students don’t do well on the standardized tests. The bigger problem is the social issues. Yes, there are some lazy teachers, but what about the good ones? Some teachers care about their students, and some just do their job.
I am not so sure I agree with holistic scoring. I don’t believe students should grade each other’s papers. This is not fair to the good writers. I will take the advice from other students, but I want my teacher to have the final say in my grade. I always read the comments that my teachers would leave on my papers. I kept them in mind for future papers. An issue that comes up is the paper load. It takes a long time to grade papers that are more than three pages. Teachers should assign shorter papers more often rather than lengthy papers once in a while.
In over my head....
I have to say at the beginning of this chapter I really felt like finally someone understood me. I am not going to say that I am a perfect writer that always gets perfect grades, but I am a good student that gets good grades, that is until ENGL200W. For the first time ever I was given an assignment that I am completely stuck on. It is so bad that I knew the paper was crap before I even turned it in, not surprised to get it back with the words “revise and resubmit” written on it. Williams writes “Nevertheless, students of all ability levels may display performances that differs from assignment to assignment or from task to task. Students that have been writing C papers for weeks will get excited about an idea or a project, will work away at it for days, and will produce B work or better. Then the next assignment finds them struggling to put together something meaningful.” (299) I totally understand this statement and now wonder what makes a paper a C or a B in each person’s standards?
I can say that in high school I actually argued a teacher into a higher grade because I was able to show evidence on why their grade was not accurate. If I was able to do this in high school, what does that have to say about that teacher grading standards? Obviously she even questioned her grading system if I was able to show her how debunked it was!
This point makes me somewhat nervous when it comes down to my turn to be on the other end of that graded paper. All of this information that Williams included in this chapter is very important to me as a soon to be teacher, but I feel it was so overwhelming that I am not sure where to start. I think that Wendy had a very good point about having some sort of class or maybe a workshop for Secondary Ed majors on assessment. All of these tools for a new teacher are great, but I think we need to truly know how to use them before we are set out with the wolves, so to speak.
As far as rubrics go, I like them. When writing a paper I actually go through the rubric given and check off for myself the things that were supposed to be addressed within the paper, that way I know what I am turning in before I even see a grade on it.
I can say that in high school I actually argued a teacher into a higher grade because I was able to show evidence on why their grade was not accurate. If I was able to do this in high school, what does that have to say about that teacher grading standards? Obviously she even questioned her grading system if I was able to show her how debunked it was!
This point makes me somewhat nervous when it comes down to my turn to be on the other end of that graded paper. All of this information that Williams included in this chapter is very important to me as a soon to be teacher, but I feel it was so overwhelming that I am not sure where to start. I think that Wendy had a very good point about having some sort of class or maybe a workshop for Secondary Ed majors on assessment. All of these tools for a new teacher are great, but I think we need to truly know how to use them before we are set out with the wolves, so to speak.
As far as rubrics go, I like them. When writing a paper I actually go through the rubric given and check off for myself the things that were supposed to be addressed within the paper, that way I know what I am turning in before I even see a grade on it.
holistic BS
This whole chapter makes me want to drop out of school and become a vagabond. Teaching English is hard work. Assessing and evaluating papers just seems impossible. I feel completely baffled by the many different approaches to grading students’ papers. Many of the ideas seem cute and ideological. Yet, I highly doubt that they would realistically work.
As a side note, I do not think that the SAT and other standardized tests are predictable measures. Yes, there will always be those genius students who obtain perfect scores on the tests and there will be students who can barely answer any questions correctly. These two types of students are predictable. However, every student in between the two categories cannot have one’s level of skill predicted from some dumb test. There are so many different types of learners out there. This test is structured for the learners that feel comfortable with and perform well on tests. I always performed better on the math section of the SAT and other such tests than the verbal section. Yet, I was always a much better writer than a geometrical proof solver. I consistently received A grades in my English college classes, whereas I received Bs in the two college math classes I was required to take. I realize that letter grades are not the point, but my SAT scores did not accurately predict my college performance. Are the math questions easier than the verbal ones on tests like this? Is math easier to assess? Is math easier to teach? Do schools across the country have better math teachers than English teachers?
I want to address my feelings about holistic scoring. I am a big fan of holistic medicinal, healing and nutritional practices. Yet, I think holistic scoring sucks. I hate about 80% of idea. I can see how students grading other students’ papers can teach them a lot about writing. This is the only positive thing that could come from this method. I feel as though it could be a good activity to practice in the class. Yet, I do not think that students should grade other students’ papers. What qualifies them for this position? There are so many factors that leave room for error. Even though the papers will be anonymous, there are ways for students to realize which papers are written by friends or students that they dislike. I would use an assessment/evaluation technique like this for only a handful of topics including creative writing pieces and in class assignments. Yet, I would monitor the process carefully and would look over the evaluations before I give the students their final grades. In this sense, the process would take longer than if I graded the papers by myself. I feel as though it should be the teacher’s job to grade more intensive assignments. It is unreasonable to expect students to grade research papers and analytical essays. This is a hard enough task for teachers who have had many years of post-secondary education.
I think I feel passionately about this subject because I took a college class in the past where the teacher left most of the class’ responsibility up to the students. I did not have positive experiences with it. The students were responsible for grading each other’s work. In many ways, it did not seem as though the teacher had any say in the grading process. I was pissed. The class was pointless for me and I did not grow as a student. The teacher came across as lazy and unmotivated. In that sense, I became lazy and unmotivated as well. The teacher knew nothing about my style or vision as a writer or a person. In many ways, I felt like I was invisible in this class and I felt cheated. Overall, I feel as though teachers should have the well being of their students in mind at all times. Finding a time efficient way to grade papers by using students to do the job of the teacher is not always a positive measure for the students.
As a side note, I do not think that the SAT and other standardized tests are predictable measures. Yes, there will always be those genius students who obtain perfect scores on the tests and there will be students who can barely answer any questions correctly. These two types of students are predictable. However, every student in between the two categories cannot have one’s level of skill predicted from some dumb test. There are so many different types of learners out there. This test is structured for the learners that feel comfortable with and perform well on tests. I always performed better on the math section of the SAT and other such tests than the verbal section. Yet, I was always a much better writer than a geometrical proof solver. I consistently received A grades in my English college classes, whereas I received Bs in the two college math classes I was required to take. I realize that letter grades are not the point, but my SAT scores did not accurately predict my college performance. Are the math questions easier than the verbal ones on tests like this? Is math easier to assess? Is math easier to teach? Do schools across the country have better math teachers than English teachers?
I want to address my feelings about holistic scoring. I am a big fan of holistic medicinal, healing and nutritional practices. Yet, I think holistic scoring sucks. I hate about 80% of idea. I can see how students grading other students’ papers can teach them a lot about writing. This is the only positive thing that could come from this method. I feel as though it could be a good activity to practice in the class. Yet, I do not think that students should grade other students’ papers. What qualifies them for this position? There are so many factors that leave room for error. Even though the papers will be anonymous, there are ways for students to realize which papers are written by friends or students that they dislike. I would use an assessment/evaluation technique like this for only a handful of topics including creative writing pieces and in class assignments. Yet, I would monitor the process carefully and would look over the evaluations before I give the students their final grades. In this sense, the process would take longer than if I graded the papers by myself. I feel as though it should be the teacher’s job to grade more intensive assignments. It is unreasonable to expect students to grade research papers and analytical essays. This is a hard enough task for teachers who have had many years of post-secondary education.
I think I feel passionately about this subject because I took a college class in the past where the teacher left most of the class’ responsibility up to the students. I did not have positive experiences with it. The students were responsible for grading each other’s work. In many ways, it did not seem as though the teacher had any say in the grading process. I was pissed. The class was pointless for me and I did not grow as a student. The teacher came across as lazy and unmotivated. In that sense, I became lazy and unmotivated as well. The teacher knew nothing about my style or vision as a writer or a person. In many ways, I felt like I was invisible in this class and I felt cheated. Overall, I feel as though teachers should have the well being of their students in mind at all times. Finding a time efficient way to grade papers by using students to do the job of the teacher is not always a positive measure for the students.
Still searching...
Wow…..Williams never fails to overwhelm me. By the time I finished this chapter, I wondered if you can take off points from a writing assignment for information overload. I think that there was a lot in this chapter that I’ll need to know for teaching; I just wish it wasn’t so long and drawn out.
I have been contemplating my feelings on rubrics and holistic scoring for years-- not months, days, or hours. I do not know how I feel about them. I think that they work better for other subjects, but yet how do you give a numerical grade (87/100) to a written assignment. For me, the problem lies in this—Every time I have used a rubric with my peers to assess a writing assignment, I tend to score differently than they do. And I don’t know why that is. Sometimes I am higher in my scoring, other times I am lower. When I ask why my scores differ, I am just told, “Because you aren’t doing it right.” Yet, how to do it “right” has yet to be taught to me.
I think this is why I question whether students can be effective evaluators of other students’ work. There are differences in how I see things and how another person see things, so how do we learn to reach the same conclusion? For example, in another class a group chose to explore the Batman graphic novels to illustrate a critical theory. That group felt that their chosen text was appropriate for the assignment. While I feel that graphic novels are excellent examples of writing and have their place among literature, I felt that their choice was completely inappropriate for the assignment. If I had to simply evaluate their choice of text, based on appropriateness, I would have given them a 1 out of 6, the group would have given themselves a 6/6, and other people in the class may have assigned a 3, 4, or 5 (based on their reactions to what we read). Who’s right?
Rubrics are a touchy subject with my mom. She’s been a teacher for over 30 years, and within the last 10 years, she has had to start using them in her classroom. She often refers back to a workshop she took on how to use them to evaluate student work, and how, within the workshop of elementary educators, scoring ranged for each example. Every time she uses the rubric for grading I can tell—and I don’t live with her or near her. I can hear frustration and exhaustion in her voice because, for her, rubrics are frustrating.
On the other hand, without rubrics, how do you score a paper? What really is the difference between a paper that gets an 87 and one that gets an 83? Where is the difference in the points? I am down to my last education class, and I don’t know how to do this….When will this be taught?
To me it is hard to define what makes good writing, because there is still a great deal of subjectiveness to it. While I may agree with you about the components that are present, I may still disagree with you about whether a paper is a 6 or a 5.
My search for “how to do it right” will continue.
I have been contemplating my feelings on rubrics and holistic scoring for years-- not months, days, or hours. I do not know how I feel about them. I think that they work better for other subjects, but yet how do you give a numerical grade (87/100) to a written assignment. For me, the problem lies in this—Every time I have used a rubric with my peers to assess a writing assignment, I tend to score differently than they do. And I don’t know why that is. Sometimes I am higher in my scoring, other times I am lower. When I ask why my scores differ, I am just told, “Because you aren’t doing it right.” Yet, how to do it “right” has yet to be taught to me.
I think this is why I question whether students can be effective evaluators of other students’ work. There are differences in how I see things and how another person see things, so how do we learn to reach the same conclusion? For example, in another class a group chose to explore the Batman graphic novels to illustrate a critical theory. That group felt that their chosen text was appropriate for the assignment. While I feel that graphic novels are excellent examples of writing and have their place among literature, I felt that their choice was completely inappropriate for the assignment. If I had to simply evaluate their choice of text, based on appropriateness, I would have given them a 1 out of 6, the group would have given themselves a 6/6, and other people in the class may have assigned a 3, 4, or 5 (based on their reactions to what we read). Who’s right?
Rubrics are a touchy subject with my mom. She’s been a teacher for over 30 years, and within the last 10 years, she has had to start using them in her classroom. She often refers back to a workshop she took on how to use them to evaluate student work, and how, within the workshop of elementary educators, scoring ranged for each example. Every time she uses the rubric for grading I can tell—and I don’t live with her or near her. I can hear frustration and exhaustion in her voice because, for her, rubrics are frustrating.
On the other hand, without rubrics, how do you score a paper? What really is the difference between a paper that gets an 87 and one that gets an 83? Where is the difference in the points? I am down to my last education class, and I don’t know how to do this….When will this be taught?
To me it is hard to define what makes good writing, because there is still a great deal of subjectiveness to it. While I may agree with you about the components that are present, I may still disagree with you about whether a paper is a 6 or a 5.
My search for “how to do it right” will continue.
Tuesday, October 27, 2009
Grading papers=scary
For the most part, I found this chapter of Williams to be quite insightful. All of the stuff about standardized testing sounded like a bunch of “mumble jumble,” but I enjoyed reading the parts about holistic scoring and portfolio grading. I think English teachers really do have a hard job when it comes to grading papers. There is no right or wrong response like math; it is much more in depth than that. Grading papers is a big fear of mine as a future English teacher. What if I’m too lenient or too strict? What sets apart an excellent paper from a good paper? How do I ensure that each paper is being graded on the same standards? Fortunately, some of these questions were touched upon in this chapter, but I think I will always have that fear until I get some practice with it. I did have one experience during my field placement last Fall grading papers. It was very overwhelming because it was my first time actually grading a set of papers. I didn’t have time to create a rubric or come up with some sort of plan for grading them, so I was going off of what I considered to be a well written paper. The previous questions were constantly lingering in my head. I was so glad when I had the papers graded, but I didn’t feel confident with it at all, so I found myself giving the students “grace” points because I felt bad. I didn’t beat myself up for it too much though because after all, it was my first time grading papers, and I guess it feels awkward to everyone at first (at least I hope so). But, I don't feel as though I have received adequate instruction in college on how to assess and evaluate as a teacher, so I'm still quite fearful.
While reading the part about teacher comments on papers, I found myself thinking back to my secondary schooling years. I recall every teacher having the same strategy: mark the paper up in ink when correcting grammar and mechanics, made a side note here and there, and then writing a summative comment at the end right next to the grade. The comment at the end would always start positive, then go negative, and end on a positive note once again. Exactly how Williams explained it. I found that strategy to be quite annoying, and I stopped paying much attention to the comments because I thought teachers had the same comments pre-programmed or something—whatever!! It got a little better in college, but on most papers, it’s still a similar format. Personally, I like when teachers and professors comment on specific things about my paper and write comments in the margin, so I know exactly what they are referring to. I like the summative comment at the end as long as it’s helpful. For example, tell me what my paper is lacking and how I might fix it, but also tell me what you like about my paper, so I don’t want to crinkle it up and throw it in the trash. I think the bullets at the end of the section on teacher comments are very helpful, and I will probably keep most of them in mind for the future. I really like the idea of reading each paper over at least two times. The first should just be a skim, and the second time is when you start making comments and such. I think that seems effective.
When I first started reading about holistic scoring, I really had my doubts. These are the questions I asked myself at the start of reading the holistic scoring section: How do you know the students are grading the papers effectively? Does holistic scoring mean the teacher doesn’t look at the assignments at all? What instruction do you give a class participating in holistic scoring? How exactly do you translate rubric scores into grades? At the start of this section, Williams made it seem as though the teacher would have a hands-off approach, so I think I panicked a little. Some of these questions were answered later in the section. After I read through much of the holistic scoring section, I began to warm up to the idea of it. I was relieved to find that the teacher still went through the assignments to make sure they were graded fairly and also settled any grading discrepancies. That is so important! I think it would be very effective to make a rubric with the whole class, so the students have a say on how they are being evaluated. Having the authority to grade their classmates’ papers is having a HUGE say, but it seems like it would be successful for the most part. At the same time, it puts a lot of pressure on the students to grade the papers (It’s even stressful for the teachers!). I don’t know if I would have cared for this type of holistic grading when I was a student in middle and high school because I didn’t really like having to grade my peers. I enjoyed peer editing, but when it came to having to score someone’s work, I got anxious. Holistic grading seems beneficial for the teacher and the students. The teacher wouldn’t spend so much time going through the papers him or herself because the students have done a large portion of the grading already. Granted, the teacher must still go through the papers to make sure the process was done correctly, but mostly, it does not require as much time from the teacher. As mentioned before, the students have a say in how they are evaluated. In addition, they are exposed to all different sorts of writing, so in the future, it will be easy for them to identify between good and bad papers (of their own). I do have one question about this type of grading, though. The one part of the chapter mentioned using student examples during this process, and it discussed how a teacher could use paper of a current student doing the assignment as an example for the class. I think this is a very bad idea. I know that only the student would know which paper is his and that all of the students’ papers are anonymous and given numbers for identification, but wouldn’t this student potentially lose confidence or perhaps be scarred for life if he saw his paper getting slammed by the whole class and being pegged as “needing more work?” But I guess, now that I think of it, even if the student’s work isn’t being used as a sample, he still knows what scores his group members are giving him in the regular process. I don’t know, maybe I just over-analyzed that section of the chapter, which I tend to do a lot of times with Williams.
Lastly, I liked the idea of portfolio grading even more. Giving the students the opportunity to pick which essays they want graded seems like an effective form of evaluation. I would love this as a student! I also liked the idea of periodically throughout the year, having a portfolio grading session, so the students write about five essays before each session; that way, the students don’t have a lot of papers to choose from all at once, and the teacher does not have so much to read at one time. It’s a shame that you have to have a group of teachers to participate in this type of grading. What if no one else wants to grade like this and you really like this form of grading? Is there a way to do it with just one teacher?
One question I always had when thinking about grading papers was: Why don’t teachers just cover up the students’ names, so they don’t know whose paper they’re grading? It seems like this would get rid of any biases or negative attitudes teachers have toward particular students while grading their papers. Would this be more helpful or is it not such a good idea? Something to ponder…
While reading the part about teacher comments on papers, I found myself thinking back to my secondary schooling years. I recall every teacher having the same strategy: mark the paper up in ink when correcting grammar and mechanics, made a side note here and there, and then writing a summative comment at the end right next to the grade. The comment at the end would always start positive, then go negative, and end on a positive note once again. Exactly how Williams explained it. I found that strategy to be quite annoying, and I stopped paying much attention to the comments because I thought teachers had the same comments pre-programmed or something—whatever!! It got a little better in college, but on most papers, it’s still a similar format. Personally, I like when teachers and professors comment on specific things about my paper and write comments in the margin, so I know exactly what they are referring to. I like the summative comment at the end as long as it’s helpful. For example, tell me what my paper is lacking and how I might fix it, but also tell me what you like about my paper, so I don’t want to crinkle it up and throw it in the trash. I think the bullets at the end of the section on teacher comments are very helpful, and I will probably keep most of them in mind for the future. I really like the idea of reading each paper over at least two times. The first should just be a skim, and the second time is when you start making comments and such. I think that seems effective.
When I first started reading about holistic scoring, I really had my doubts. These are the questions I asked myself at the start of reading the holistic scoring section: How do you know the students are grading the papers effectively? Does holistic scoring mean the teacher doesn’t look at the assignments at all? What instruction do you give a class participating in holistic scoring? How exactly do you translate rubric scores into grades? At the start of this section, Williams made it seem as though the teacher would have a hands-off approach, so I think I panicked a little. Some of these questions were answered later in the section. After I read through much of the holistic scoring section, I began to warm up to the idea of it. I was relieved to find that the teacher still went through the assignments to make sure they were graded fairly and also settled any grading discrepancies. That is so important! I think it would be very effective to make a rubric with the whole class, so the students have a say on how they are being evaluated. Having the authority to grade their classmates’ papers is having a HUGE say, but it seems like it would be successful for the most part. At the same time, it puts a lot of pressure on the students to grade the papers (It’s even stressful for the teachers!). I don’t know if I would have cared for this type of holistic grading when I was a student in middle and high school because I didn’t really like having to grade my peers. I enjoyed peer editing, but when it came to having to score someone’s work, I got anxious. Holistic grading seems beneficial for the teacher and the students. The teacher wouldn’t spend so much time going through the papers him or herself because the students have done a large portion of the grading already. Granted, the teacher must still go through the papers to make sure the process was done correctly, but mostly, it does not require as much time from the teacher. As mentioned before, the students have a say in how they are evaluated. In addition, they are exposed to all different sorts of writing, so in the future, it will be easy for them to identify between good and bad papers (of their own). I do have one question about this type of grading, though. The one part of the chapter mentioned using student examples during this process, and it discussed how a teacher could use paper of a current student doing the assignment as an example for the class. I think this is a very bad idea. I know that only the student would know which paper is his and that all of the students’ papers are anonymous and given numbers for identification, but wouldn’t this student potentially lose confidence or perhaps be scarred for life if he saw his paper getting slammed by the whole class and being pegged as “needing more work?” But I guess, now that I think of it, even if the student’s work isn’t being used as a sample, he still knows what scores his group members are giving him in the regular process. I don’t know, maybe I just over-analyzed that section of the chapter, which I tend to do a lot of times with Williams.
Lastly, I liked the idea of portfolio grading even more. Giving the students the opportunity to pick which essays they want graded seems like an effective form of evaluation. I would love this as a student! I also liked the idea of periodically throughout the year, having a portfolio grading session, so the students write about five essays before each session; that way, the students don’t have a lot of papers to choose from all at once, and the teacher does not have so much to read at one time. It’s a shame that you have to have a group of teachers to participate in this type of grading. What if no one else wants to grade like this and you really like this form of grading? Is there a way to do it with just one teacher?
One question I always had when thinking about grading papers was: Why don’t teachers just cover up the students’ names, so they don’t know whose paper they’re grading? It seems like this would get rid of any biases or negative attitudes teachers have toward particular students while grading their papers. Would this be more helpful or is it not such a good idea? Something to ponder…
Portfolio grading gets an "A"
When I did my field observations, I graded all the written work that the students turned in. For some of the assignments my mentor teacher had a rubric, but for many, she did not. The first assignment I graded took me hours to get through because I was new at it and I wanted to give each student some comments on their work. As a student myself, I am more interested in a teacher’s comments because it is through these comments that I learn what I am doing well as well as what I can do to improve my writing. I had no previous experience with grading, nor any formal instruction other than the instruction that my mentor teacher gave me as I began grading. Later, as my mentor teacher was checking my results, I watched her raise the grade on nearly every single paper. When I asked her to explain why, she said that she doesn’t grade in that strict a manner because otherwise it would dishearten the students. I was truly appalled by this notion! Again, speaking as a student, if I thought for one moment that any of my teachers were grading my work “loosely” so as not to dishearten me, it would demean the entire assignment for me, and the grade would have no value. While I do believe that some of the grades I gave needed to be raised,(because I graded for everything… content, relevance and even grammar!) there were many papers that I still believe should have retained their original grade. Eventually I got the hang of her grading style and graded accordingly … it was, after all, HER class. But I told myself that when I finally had my own class, I didn’t want to grade like that. I wanted the grades I give to actually have more of a connection to the work performed and the lessons taught. However, I didn’t, and still really don’t, know how to accomplish that goal.
After reading about holistic scoring, I find myself agreeing with Williams in that there is so much room for error here. In an ideal situation, holistic scoring may be the answer to the amount of time a teacher must spend on assessment, but given factors like following the protocol incorrectly, or having students who are not clear on the procedure, the reliability of this approach to assessment is suspect. I much prefer portfolio grading. In one of my first college composition classes, my professor used this approach. In this class we wrote a total of 6 essays, each of which was 4-6 pages in length. The professor had us turn in the first draft of each paper and gave us a few comments on each, but did not grade them. When it was time for midterms, we chose 2 of the 3 papers we had completed by then, and turned those in for grading. When it was time for finals, we chose 3 of the 6 papers completed, and that was the writing on which our final grade was based. Without the stress of assessment placed on each individual paper, the professor was free to comment on the writing and give insightful advice. Since the teacher comments increased, I learned more from these papers than if there had been a grade attached to it.
As a side note, I wish that a part of the undergrad education program here at PSU included a class on assessment. I will begin student teaching in a few short weeks having had no experience in writing a rubric or assessments of any kind. This is one of several things that make me feel less than ready.
After reading about holistic scoring, I find myself agreeing with Williams in that there is so much room for error here. In an ideal situation, holistic scoring may be the answer to the amount of time a teacher must spend on assessment, but given factors like following the protocol incorrectly, or having students who are not clear on the procedure, the reliability of this approach to assessment is suspect. I much prefer portfolio grading. In one of my first college composition classes, my professor used this approach. In this class we wrote a total of 6 essays, each of which was 4-6 pages in length. The professor had us turn in the first draft of each paper and gave us a few comments on each, but did not grade them. When it was time for midterms, we chose 2 of the 3 papers we had completed by then, and turned those in for grading. When it was time for finals, we chose 3 of the 6 papers completed, and that was the writing on which our final grade was based. Without the stress of assessment placed on each individual paper, the professor was free to comment on the writing and give insightful advice. Since the teacher comments increased, I learned more from these papers than if there had been a grade attached to it.
As a side note, I wish that a part of the undergrad education program here at PSU included a class on assessment. I will begin student teaching in a few short weeks having had no experience in writing a rubric or assessments of any kind. This is one of several things that make me feel less than ready.
Subjective & Objective
DISCLAIMER: After digesting this chapter, I am feeling like a grump. Please allow for general sarcasm, mockery, and all around moodiness.
Dear James D. Williams,
We don’t live in an objective world. Get over it.
Sincerely,
Me
But seriously, evaluation will never be free of subjectivity, no matter how one might try. Williams first writes that “the standard [of evaluation] may be one that individual teachers bring to their classrooms . . . The individual standard is not only the most common but also the most problematic because it naturally varies from teacher to teacher, creating uneven evaluation of students engaged in similar activities” (298). Later, Williams suggests that teachers collaborate with one another to make evaluation more reliable. Sure, instructors may agree on some of the factors of “good writing,” but what of their separate methodologies? If one teacher favors creativity, while another places high importance on clarity, should a merging of ideologies be forced? Personally, I don’t think so. Even as a student, I don’t want to conform to some bore of a standard rubric in every classroom. I like when different professors value opposing facets of writing. With a rubric, I’m just playing it safe and writing to it, much as an instructor “teaches to the test.” How uninspiring.
Still, when the reliability, validity, and funds all come together to create a standardized test, such as the SAT, I do not consider it flawless. Through my own experience, such tests have never fully measured my abilities accurately. I am an average math student, and have been known to fret over many an algebraic problem, but yet I consistently score higher on the math portion than the verbal. I have never been able to determine why. Doesn’t seem too accurate to me.
Additionally, I had a bit of a laugh when Williams discussed the lack of a correlation between federal funding and student and school performance. Leave it to us material Americans to focus on the monetary aspects of education, instead of what truly matters, such as student preparation for schooling. We are so quick to place the blame on something that is apparently lacking, such as funding, or teacher attentiveness, when the problems of the education system are really so much bigger than a dollar sign. I see a lot of the system’s problems as belonging to the wayward focus of society.
Dear James D. Williams,
We don’t live in an objective world. Get over it.
Sincerely,
Me
But seriously, evaluation will never be free of subjectivity, no matter how one might try. Williams first writes that “the standard [of evaluation] may be one that individual teachers bring to their classrooms . . . The individual standard is not only the most common but also the most problematic because it naturally varies from teacher to teacher, creating uneven evaluation of students engaged in similar activities” (298). Later, Williams suggests that teachers collaborate with one another to make evaluation more reliable. Sure, instructors may agree on some of the factors of “good writing,” but what of their separate methodologies? If one teacher favors creativity, while another places high importance on clarity, should a merging of ideologies be forced? Personally, I don’t think so. Even as a student, I don’t want to conform to some bore of a standard rubric in every classroom. I like when different professors value opposing facets of writing. With a rubric, I’m just playing it safe and writing to it, much as an instructor “teaches to the test.” How uninspiring.
Still, when the reliability, validity, and funds all come together to create a standardized test, such as the SAT, I do not consider it flawless. Through my own experience, such tests have never fully measured my abilities accurately. I am an average math student, and have been known to fret over many an algebraic problem, but yet I consistently score higher on the math portion than the verbal. I have never been able to determine why. Doesn’t seem too accurate to me.
Additionally, I had a bit of a laugh when Williams discussed the lack of a correlation between federal funding and student and school performance. Leave it to us material Americans to focus on the monetary aspects of education, instead of what truly matters, such as student preparation for schooling. We are so quick to place the blame on something that is apparently lacking, such as funding, or teacher attentiveness, when the problems of the education system are really so much bigger than a dollar sign. I see a lot of the system’s problems as belonging to the wayward focus of society.
This chapter went over an issue that I was having this past week. In my student observation, I asked to read some of the rough drafts that the students wrote for a satire. Most of the students wanted me to read them and I wrote feedback on their papers for them to help them with their final copy. It took me the entire day to do these papers. Then when they turned in their final copies, I was given the opportunity to grade them. I really enjoyed it the first time so I enthusiastically said "yes".
However, it turned out to be much harder to grade their papers than to just offer feedback. I was given a rubric which graded them in three different areas. The entire assignment was worth 45. At first, when I started reading a lot of the students were way off topic and confused by the assignment. (based on their writing) I graded these papers, but didn't want to grade them too low since it seemed like no one was doing it correctly. However, then I began to read students' satires that were written very well. I gave these students higher scores and then I went back and changed some of the earlier scores because I had to make it more fair. Otherwise, the students with poor papers would have had grades that were only a little below the advanced students.
I graded 50 papers and I admit that I changed and reread so many of the satires that it was driving me crazy. Sometimes I would ask my mentor teach for suggestions and she would tell me a grade higher or lower than what I would have given. This made me feel unsure and I began to wish that I had never agreed to do it. I think it all worked out okay though. (I haven't recieved any feedback from my mentor teacher yet). I think this process will be easier for me when I get to create the rubric and I am the only one assessing the paper.
English is such a subjective subject when it comes to grading. There is a rubric to follow, but there is still so much room for your own opinion. It is a difficult process to complete when you are grading for another teacher. It took me 2 1/2 full school days to finish grading those papers and if I still had them on me I would probably still be checking to make sure that all the grades were appropriate for the quality of work that they did. It was a tough assignment for a 7th grade class, even though it was an honors class.
I have never heard of teachers using holistic scoring for major papers before. I wonder if anyone else has heard of it or used it before. It sounds like a good idea to give the teacher more time. I like the idea that the students are given identity numbers because otherwise this would never work. I think this is the only way to ensure that it stays objective. I would be interested to try it, but I probably wouldn't rely on it for all assignments. I want to read their work too.
However, it turned out to be much harder to grade their papers than to just offer feedback. I was given a rubric which graded them in three different areas. The entire assignment was worth 45. At first, when I started reading a lot of the students were way off topic and confused by the assignment. (based on their writing) I graded these papers, but didn't want to grade them too low since it seemed like no one was doing it correctly. However, then I began to read students' satires that were written very well. I gave these students higher scores and then I went back and changed some of the earlier scores because I had to make it more fair. Otherwise, the students with poor papers would have had grades that were only a little below the advanced students.
I graded 50 papers and I admit that I changed and reread so many of the satires that it was driving me crazy. Sometimes I would ask my mentor teach for suggestions and she would tell me a grade higher or lower than what I would have given. This made me feel unsure and I began to wish that I had never agreed to do it. I think it all worked out okay though. (I haven't recieved any feedback from my mentor teacher yet). I think this process will be easier for me when I get to create the rubric and I am the only one assessing the paper.
English is such a subjective subject when it comes to grading. There is a rubric to follow, but there is still so much room for your own opinion. It is a difficult process to complete when you are grading for another teacher. It took me 2 1/2 full school days to finish grading those papers and if I still had them on me I would probably still be checking to make sure that all the grades were appropriate for the quality of work that they did. It was a tough assignment for a 7th grade class, even though it was an honors class.
I have never heard of teachers using holistic scoring for major papers before. I wonder if anyone else has heard of it or used it before. It sounds like a good idea to give the teacher more time. I like the idea that the students are given identity numbers because otherwise this would never work. I think this is the only way to ensure that it stays objective. I would be interested to try it, but I probably wouldn't rely on it for all assignments. I want to read their work too.
Even before reading Williams’ chapter on evaluating and assessing writing, I already knew the task of grading student writing would be a difficult one.
Although I have no experience with grading papers yet, I think the hardest part is how not to be subjective when reading papers. With a writing assignment, there are no concrete right or wrong answers. It’s not like a mathematics problem where there is one definitive solution. On page 297, Williams states that writing evaluation “involves comparison on two levels: the standard set by other students in the class and by some preestablished standard of good writing.” A preestablished standard seems like a very vague concept to me. Who gets to decide what “good” writing is? Williams gives several different examples of how the standard could be set, but I still find it confusing. If you’re a teacher at one school who uses a certain set standard, and then you get a job somewhere else that uses a different standard, it must be difficult to adjust your grading style.
When I was in school, I’m pretty sure only teachers evaluated my writing. The papers I got back always had comments and then a letter grade assigned to them. I’m also pretty sure the letter grade was placed next to the final comments. Williams states in this chapter that teachers should avoid placing the comments and the grade next to each other. I wish he elaborated on this concept a little more in the chapter. He mentions that some students will ignore the comment and just focus on the grade. I wonder if there are any other reasons for this.
I know it increases the teachers’ workloads, but I am interested in the idea of evaluating rough drafts. Sure, the comments on students’ writing can help them on their next assignment, but I think the comments are more helpful if students can apply them to that same piece of writing.
I had never heard of the holistic grading method until I read this chapter. I’m not sure how I feel about. As a middle school and high school student, I don’t think I would have liked having that responsibility. However, I do think hearing different comments and point of views about your writing can be very helpful. I could also see the holistic method working better at the university level, where students have had more experience with writing. It would be interesting to hear from students and teachers in classes that use this holistic method.
Although I have no experience with grading papers yet, I think the hardest part is how not to be subjective when reading papers. With a writing assignment, there are no concrete right or wrong answers. It’s not like a mathematics problem where there is one definitive solution. On page 297, Williams states that writing evaluation “involves comparison on two levels: the standard set by other students in the class and by some preestablished standard of good writing.” A preestablished standard seems like a very vague concept to me. Who gets to decide what “good” writing is? Williams gives several different examples of how the standard could be set, but I still find it confusing. If you’re a teacher at one school who uses a certain set standard, and then you get a job somewhere else that uses a different standard, it must be difficult to adjust your grading style.
When I was in school, I’m pretty sure only teachers evaluated my writing. The papers I got back always had comments and then a letter grade assigned to them. I’m also pretty sure the letter grade was placed next to the final comments. Williams states in this chapter that teachers should avoid placing the comments and the grade next to each other. I wish he elaborated on this concept a little more in the chapter. He mentions that some students will ignore the comment and just focus on the grade. I wonder if there are any other reasons for this.
I know it increases the teachers’ workloads, but I am interested in the idea of evaluating rough drafts. Sure, the comments on students’ writing can help them on their next assignment, but I think the comments are more helpful if students can apply them to that same piece of writing.
I had never heard of the holistic grading method until I read this chapter. I’m not sure how I feel about. As a middle school and high school student, I don’t think I would have liked having that responsibility. However, I do think hearing different comments and point of views about your writing can be very helpful. I could also see the holistic method working better at the university level, where students have had more experience with writing. It would be interesting to hear from students and teachers in classes that use this holistic method.
Mr. Williams and I agree
Despite the fact that we are back to Williams, I actually enjoyed this chapter. I definitely feel that English teachers have a lot of work cut out for them when it comes to grading papers. In my observing my teacher was having me grade paragraphs on point-of-view. I was giving everyone really bad grades. I couldn’t help but wonder if it was because I was in a bad mood, or if the papers really were bad. My teacher said I was being fair, and that she would have graded them the same way. However, I really did feel like it was kind of subjective. This is where my friend Williams has been slightly helpful.
As much as I don’t want to read papers twice, I did like the logic behind it. Putting papers onto three piles based on strength is a smart idea. At least, then I know why each paper is in a particular pile. I’m not just going along writing grades on papers, so I can get them graded. Plus, sometimes it is really difficult to decide on a letter grade. If it is an 89, then I might feel obligated to give the student an A. I do always enjoy specific comments as a student, so I want to be sure that I give clear comments that provide some kind of constructive criticism. Also, I see the point in not correcting mechanical problems, because most students won’t learn from them. They are simply done with the paper. I do like the idea of finding common problems in papers, discussing them with the class, and then grading them on the next paper. I’m sad though. I always hated red ink as a student, but as a teacher I find red pens so empowering. However, I suppose I can write in pencil, since Williams thinks it is friendlier.
I do think holistic grading can be effective for most students. Yet, I don’t think it will be very beneficial for the students who are strong writers in the classroom. They will be assessing other papers, but they might not get helpful feedback to improve their own writing. Rubrics I think are an excellent way to grade papers. I always enjoyed rubrics, because then I knew exactly what I was being graded on. Having the students’ grade papers using a rubric is a neat idea, and I like that two students grade one paper. Also, the idea of a split score is nice. This way a paper can be evaluated one last time and be given the most appropriate score. Plus, I think the idea of a code number is necessary, so students don’t grade unfairly, and sample papers are a must!
I can see how holistic grading is beneficial, but I have personally found portfolio writing beneficial, too. I think the writer feels really good when they are able to examine his/her own growth. Writing really is a process, and it takes a lot of good and bad writing to improve that process. As a teacher, I would somehow like to incorporate a lot of different grading approaches for my students’ writings.
As much as I don’t want to read papers twice, I did like the logic behind it. Putting papers onto three piles based on strength is a smart idea. At least, then I know why each paper is in a particular pile. I’m not just going along writing grades on papers, so I can get them graded. Plus, sometimes it is really difficult to decide on a letter grade. If it is an 89, then I might feel obligated to give the student an A. I do always enjoy specific comments as a student, so I want to be sure that I give clear comments that provide some kind of constructive criticism. Also, I see the point in not correcting mechanical problems, because most students won’t learn from them. They are simply done with the paper. I do like the idea of finding common problems in papers, discussing them with the class, and then grading them on the next paper. I’m sad though. I always hated red ink as a student, but as a teacher I find red pens so empowering. However, I suppose I can write in pencil, since Williams thinks it is friendlier.
I do think holistic grading can be effective for most students. Yet, I don’t think it will be very beneficial for the students who are strong writers in the classroom. They will be assessing other papers, but they might not get helpful feedback to improve their own writing. Rubrics I think are an excellent way to grade papers. I always enjoyed rubrics, because then I knew exactly what I was being graded on. Having the students’ grade papers using a rubric is a neat idea, and I like that two students grade one paper. Also, the idea of a split score is nice. This way a paper can be evaluated one last time and be given the most appropriate score. Plus, I think the idea of a code number is necessary, so students don’t grade unfairly, and sample papers are a must!
I can see how holistic grading is beneficial, but I have personally found portfolio writing beneficial, too. I think the writer feels really good when they are able to examine his/her own growth. Writing really is a process, and it takes a lot of good and bad writing to improve that process. As a teacher, I would somehow like to incorporate a lot of different grading approaches for my students’ writings.
Blog 9
After reading this section of the Williams text, the immediate thought that crossed my mind was, “I’m glad I’m not going to be an English teacher.” I do mean this with the utmost respect to my fellow classmates.
Of all of the various varieties of teachers, I do believe that the English teacher has the hardest and most significant job. First of all, grading is so subjective. There are no right and wrong answers. Figuring out grades is not simply a matter of comparing answers to an answer key. English teachers aren’t just teaching facts and numbers but are teaching critical thinking and synthesis of ideas.
Additionally, grading papers is no easy task. It is very time consuming. Yeah, Williams’s idea of scanning papers, putting them in piles, rereading and commenting (genuine comments not just surface comments) is a fabulous idea. I guess it would depend on the teacher, his/her commitment level, and how much work load is on that individual’s plate.
This is slightly off topic from the book but….the English teacher has far more responsibility than any other type of teacher. Learning to write well is so important for nearly every profession. My husband is a printing press mechanic. He started his own company and has to write bid proposals and various business emails to people who own multi-million dollar companies. Who would think that a mechanic would end up needing writing skills? Even if you don’t end up owning your own business, writing is so often used in everyday life. Once again, I’m glad I’m not going to be an English teacher. It is a lot of responsibility.
I think it is sad that cost and politics need to be added to what Williams considers key factors of assessment. It is sad but true. Because English teachers do have so much responsibility over the futures of their young writers, I would hope that anyone getting into the teaching profession, particularly in the English curriculum, would be more worried about finding effective ways to use assessment to reach students rather than worry about funding. Good for you Amanda! Unfortunately, the truth is that the “higher ups” have to worry about funding and very likely put pressure on their employees to produce superior results. I think it is interesting that Williams points out that “studies have shown little if any correlation between high academic performance and funding” (310). Kind of makes you think, doesn’t it?
Of all of the various varieties of teachers, I do believe that the English teacher has the hardest and most significant job. First of all, grading is so subjective. There are no right and wrong answers. Figuring out grades is not simply a matter of comparing answers to an answer key. English teachers aren’t just teaching facts and numbers but are teaching critical thinking and synthesis of ideas.
Additionally, grading papers is no easy task. It is very time consuming. Yeah, Williams’s idea of scanning papers, putting them in piles, rereading and commenting (genuine comments not just surface comments) is a fabulous idea. I guess it would depend on the teacher, his/her commitment level, and how much work load is on that individual’s plate.
This is slightly off topic from the book but….the English teacher has far more responsibility than any other type of teacher. Learning to write well is so important for nearly every profession. My husband is a printing press mechanic. He started his own company and has to write bid proposals and various business emails to people who own multi-million dollar companies. Who would think that a mechanic would end up needing writing skills? Even if you don’t end up owning your own business, writing is so often used in everyday life. Once again, I’m glad I’m not going to be an English teacher. It is a lot of responsibility.
I think it is sad that cost and politics need to be added to what Williams considers key factors of assessment. It is sad but true. Because English teachers do have so much responsibility over the futures of their young writers, I would hope that anyone getting into the teaching profession, particularly in the English curriculum, would be more worried about finding effective ways to use assessment to reach students rather than worry about funding. Good for you Amanda! Unfortunately, the truth is that the “higher ups” have to worry about funding and very likely put pressure on their employees to produce superior results. I think it is interesting that Williams points out that “studies have shown little if any correlation between high academic performance and funding” (310). Kind of makes you think, doesn’t it?
Monday, October 26, 2009
The Holistic vs. Portfolio Debate
Because I have no teaching or even student teaching experience, and haven't read any Middle or High School papers other than my son's or the ones I wrote years ago, I feel a little leery of weighing in on methods of evaluating writing. I'm sure seasoned teachers would have very strong opinions based on their own successes and failures, and I'd be very curious to learn how they feel about Holistic vs. Portfolio Grading.
In general, however, I am somewhat suspicious of Holistic Grading because it gives students the task of grading other students at an age of extreme self-consciousness, gossipy-ness and heavily emotional social dyamics. I realize that students' names are removed -- so that David doesn't know he's grading Kate's paper or vice versa -- but I still know that as a teen I would have felt very awkward knowing my paper was going to be read by other kids. Teenage me probably also would have been distracted by constantly wondering "now, whose paper is this?"
I am much more comfortable with the idea of Portfolio Grading. I like the way it empowers students to select their best writings and discard the lesser ones. I think knowing they won't have to be graded on everything will help them become braver, more experimental writers rather than just grade-conscious, rule-following drones. I am not clear, however, why it's imperative that several teachers collaborate on Portfolio Grading, or that it's even a practical idea. The teaching loads and home responsibilities of individual teachers might make it very hard for them to arrange mutually convenient times to meet.
I also have some issues with Williams' rubrics for grading. I wish they had been presented as lists of criteria or bullet points, because in paragraph form they are hard to read and distinguish from each other. Also, I think any grade an English teacher gives, no matter how objective and rubric-based it purports to be, will always be something of a matter of opinion. The "Holistic" grades Williams gives to the sample essays seem reasonable, but I wonder if all real-life student essays are so easily pigeon-holed.
In general, however, I am somewhat suspicious of Holistic Grading because it gives students the task of grading other students at an age of extreme self-consciousness, gossipy-ness and heavily emotional social dyamics. I realize that students' names are removed -- so that David doesn't know he's grading Kate's paper or vice versa -- but I still know that as a teen I would have felt very awkward knowing my paper was going to be read by other kids. Teenage me probably also would have been distracted by constantly wondering "now, whose paper is this?"
I am much more comfortable with the idea of Portfolio Grading. I like the way it empowers students to select their best writings and discard the lesser ones. I think knowing they won't have to be graded on everything will help them become braver, more experimental writers rather than just grade-conscious, rule-following drones. I am not clear, however, why it's imperative that several teachers collaborate on Portfolio Grading, or that it's even a practical idea. The teaching loads and home responsibilities of individual teachers might make it very hard for them to arrange mutually convenient times to meet.
I also have some issues with Williams' rubrics for grading. I wish they had been presented as lists of criteria or bullet points, because in paragraph form they are hard to read and distinguish from each other. Also, I think any grade an English teacher gives, no matter how objective and rubric-based it purports to be, will always be something of a matter of opinion. The "Holistic" grades Williams gives to the sample essays seem reasonable, but I wonder if all real-life student essays are so easily pigeon-holed.
Sunday, October 25, 2009
I teach for the students, not the money
William says, as one premise of the arguments of centralizing control of public schools, “teachers in the schools are slacker” (p. 309). He continues to say that “performance funding is labeled an incentive to get teachers to work (harder)…” (p. 309).
This is where I have a problem, not with the schools or with the government, but with the teachers. Teachers, I believe, shouldn’t be given an incentive to work hard, or work at all, by the government. It is my hope that those who become teachers do so for the pure benefit of knowing that they helped children progress and succeed in their schooling – no matter what the subject. They should want to teach and teach well, no matter what the pay (and coming into it, they should already know the pay isn’t equal of a surgeon’s). To teach is to help. It frustrates me to see teachers in schools, like my former high school for example, continue to battle about salary issues (since 2002, may I add about my alma mater). Yes, I understand the economic times are hard and yes teachers deserve more than what they are given, but one (hopefully) entered this position with the aspiration of helping students, not for the money. (As a side thought here: Teachers do deserve more pay in general for they are doing – teaching. Teachers are the people parents put their trust in to (help) make their children well-rounded, smart, decent individuals. The current salaries, obviously, do serve them justice.) In that, I hope more teachers, future teachers, will realized that what they are doing is for the betterment of the community, for the state, for the country… for humanity. And it’s not hard to tell apart the teachers who teach for a job and the teachers who teach to improve. Throughout my secondary education careers, only ONE teacher stands out in my mind that I believe was truly there to help his students. One. Sure, there were others that liked it time from time but none were as consistent as he. Of course, he was open with us (he had the “open door policy”, where he would always be there for us if we needed him), and he related to us: talked to us about current events and issues we may face at that age. (Anther side thought: He was my 8th grade English teacher. At the beginning of the school year, a 9th grader had committed suicide by hanging [9th grade was in the high school, 8th grade was in the middle school so most of us didn’t know who he was], and that following day he started by openingly telling the class of what happened and told he if any of us felt depressed about anything in our lives or upset, he would always be there to talk to [along with the school counselors as well]. Of course, those weren’t his exact words but the memory of him being so open and caring for his students still sticks with me to this day.) And it was those teachers that I learned better from (whether it was about life or the topic of the class). Those teachers, the ones that care about the betterment of their students, the teachers care about what they were teaching, are the ones I remember. They made me care about they were teaching, too. I learned most from those teachers, and their attitude towards teaching is the same I strive for when it is my turn to teach. I will be like them. I will make a change.
This is where I have a problem, not with the schools or with the government, but with the teachers. Teachers, I believe, shouldn’t be given an incentive to work hard, or work at all, by the government. It is my hope that those who become teachers do so for the pure benefit of knowing that they helped children progress and succeed in their schooling – no matter what the subject. They should want to teach and teach well, no matter what the pay (and coming into it, they should already know the pay isn’t equal of a surgeon’s). To teach is to help. It frustrates me to see teachers in schools, like my former high school for example, continue to battle about salary issues (since 2002, may I add about my alma mater). Yes, I understand the economic times are hard and yes teachers deserve more than what they are given, but one (hopefully) entered this position with the aspiration of helping students, not for the money. (As a side thought here: Teachers do deserve more pay in general for they are doing – teaching. Teachers are the people parents put their trust in to (help) make their children well-rounded, smart, decent individuals. The current salaries, obviously, do serve them justice.) In that, I hope more teachers, future teachers, will realized that what they are doing is for the betterment of the community, for the state, for the country… for humanity. And it’s not hard to tell apart the teachers who teach for a job and the teachers who teach to improve. Throughout my secondary education careers, only ONE teacher stands out in my mind that I believe was truly there to help his students. One. Sure, there were others that liked it time from time but none were as consistent as he. Of course, he was open with us (he had the “open door policy”, where he would always be there for us if we needed him), and he related to us: talked to us about current events and issues we may face at that age. (Anther side thought: He was my 8th grade English teacher. At the beginning of the school year, a 9th grader had committed suicide by hanging [9th grade was in the high school, 8th grade was in the middle school so most of us didn’t know who he was], and that following day he started by openingly telling the class of what happened and told he if any of us felt depressed about anything in our lives or upset, he would always be there to talk to [along with the school counselors as well]. Of course, those weren’t his exact words but the memory of him being so open and caring for his students still sticks with me to this day.) And it was those teachers that I learned better from (whether it was about life or the topic of the class). Those teachers, the ones that care about the betterment of their students, the teachers care about what they were teaching, are the ones I remember. They made me care about they were teaching, too. I learned most from those teachers, and their attitude towards teaching is the same I strive for when it is my turn to teach. I will be like them. I will make a change.
Friday, October 23, 2009
putting it into practice
Well done, everyone. it's good to see the connections you're making between Elbow's advice and your own expereinces with workshopping. Monday will be a good time to put some of these ideas into practice with our second peer review workshop. I also hope that you'll be able to see ways that the strategies you use (or the lack of strategy or of helpful feedback) will also help to shape ideas for your own future writing pedagogy.
Wednesday, October 21, 2009
Teacherless Writing Classes
I found Elbow’s exploration of the effectiveness of using a teacherless writing class to improve all writing an interesting topic. In my experience, peer review workshops have never been overly useful, as both a writer and a reader. It’s hard deal with criticism, whether that means giving feedback or taking everyone else’s comments in, swallowing them whole. As a reader, too often there exists an unspoken rule that you should tread lightly when you tell the writer what you thought about his/her piece. Nobody wants to rock the boat or create waves with truly constructive criticism because there is a fear that the writer may perceive it as negative criticism (the two are often confused). When I read a peer’s paper, I try to be honest, but I, too, tend to hold back. Additionally, time constraints and the idea that writing workshops are essentially free periods that should be rushed through never produce great peer editing.
From my perspective as a writer, I find it’s very rare that another student is actually able or willing to give feedback that I can use. Statements are vague, like “That was really good,” or “I wouldn’t change anything, except this minor thing.” When this happens, I always suppose it’s nice to hear that my paper was easy to read and comprehend, but I also feel like the other student copped out; I was robbed of an opportunity to improve my writing. Overall, I find that the prevailing passivity prevents progress.
The teacherless writing class would be a great way to be more proactive; I could put myself out there as a writer and open up myself to the views, opinions, writing styles, voices, and interests of others as a reader. One problem with the concept of such a class, however, is that it seems impractical. Gathering a group of at least 7 dedicated writers (whether they work in similar or different fields) who can spare two or two and half hours a week for ten weeks would be a difficult task for anyone to accomplish. Many people simply can’t make such a commitment when there are other pressing matters like work and home life to occupy the day. Nevertheless, and despite the infeasibility of the teacherless writing class, I still see the tips Elbow gives to his readers on giving and receiving criticisms as quite useful and I plan to apply them in future peer reading/writing workshops.
Too often I realize that I’m guilty of being a reviewer who “tells” but doesn’t “show.” To remedy this, I plan on creating, as Elbow suggests, metaphors to describe my experience of a piece of writing. At first, I’m sure this will be tricky since I’m not used to this method, but it will be a worthy technique to test out in class. I will also try to be more specific about my reactions. Normally I look for particular parts of a paper that I can discuss with the writer, but many times my response oversimplifies the work. This usually happens because of the time limits in school; there just isn’t enough class time to do a proper review of a two or more peers’ writing or improve one’s own skills as an editor. I genuinely believe that the teacherless writing class would be a useful tool for self-improvement, but because it’s not utilized in educational systems, young readers and writers miss out on this opportunity for growth.
From my perspective as a writer, I find it’s very rare that another student is actually able or willing to give feedback that I can use. Statements are vague, like “That was really good,” or “I wouldn’t change anything, except this minor thing.” When this happens, I always suppose it’s nice to hear that my paper was easy to read and comprehend, but I also feel like the other student copped out; I was robbed of an opportunity to improve my writing. Overall, I find that the prevailing passivity prevents progress.
The teacherless writing class would be a great way to be more proactive; I could put myself out there as a writer and open up myself to the views, opinions, writing styles, voices, and interests of others as a reader. One problem with the concept of such a class, however, is that it seems impractical. Gathering a group of at least 7 dedicated writers (whether they work in similar or different fields) who can spare two or two and half hours a week for ten weeks would be a difficult task for anyone to accomplish. Many people simply can’t make such a commitment when there are other pressing matters like work and home life to occupy the day. Nevertheless, and despite the infeasibility of the teacherless writing class, I still see the tips Elbow gives to his readers on giving and receiving criticisms as quite useful and I plan to apply them in future peer reading/writing workshops.
Too often I realize that I’m guilty of being a reviewer who “tells” but doesn’t “show.” To remedy this, I plan on creating, as Elbow suggests, metaphors to describe my experience of a piece of writing. At first, I’m sure this will be tricky since I’m not used to this method, but it will be a worthy technique to test out in class. I will also try to be more specific about my reactions. Normally I look for particular parts of a paper that I can discuss with the writer, but many times my response oversimplifies the work. This usually happens because of the time limits in school; there just isn’t enough class time to do a proper review of a two or more peers’ writing or improve one’s own skills as an editor. I genuinely believe that the teacherless writing class would be a useful tool for self-improvement, but because it’s not utilized in educational systems, young readers and writers miss out on this opportunity for growth.
Workshops
I enjoyed this current reading of Elbow and liked his ideas on sharing one’s work with others. I think if you are able to get over the fear of sharing, the benefits of peer review are very beneficial. I like what he states on page 78, “Do you want to learn how to write or protect your feelings?” This is a good way to look at it and just get over it for the betterment of you and your writing skills.
I understand what Elbow writes on page 112, “The teacherless class makes people nervous.” Having a teacher there to monitor and keep others on task makes people think they are being productive. Is that teacher really assisting with something like peer review between others though? I don’t think so.
Last Fall I took a creative writing course that was pretty much run without a teacher. Everyone was assigned two weeks through the semester that they were to contribute a piece of work for everyone to read and review, this included the teacher as well. All he did through the entire class was to take attendance at the beginning and remind the person who was to submit their work next. The peer reviews were great and insightful and I feel I learned a lot about myself as a writer that semester.
Another professor I had did something I has never had do before. When we had papers due, that class period was set up as a conference time and you signed up for a 15 minute spot where you came into the class and read the paper aloud to the professor, then he read it on his own and graded it there right in front of you. I can say that it was sort of intimidating at first, but it forced me to read my papers out loud before I even got to the point of turning them in. This helped me to correct the silly mistakes that I would of never found had I not read it out loud to myself first.
I understand what Elbow writes on page 112, “The teacherless class makes people nervous.” Having a teacher there to monitor and keep others on task makes people think they are being productive. Is that teacher really assisting with something like peer review between others though? I don’t think so.
Last Fall I took a creative writing course that was pretty much run without a teacher. Everyone was assigned two weeks through the semester that they were to contribute a piece of work for everyone to read and review, this included the teacher as well. All he did through the entire class was to take attendance at the beginning and remind the person who was to submit their work next. The peer reviews were great and insightful and I feel I learned a lot about myself as a writer that semester.
Another professor I had did something I has never had do before. When we had papers due, that class period was set up as a conference time and you signed up for a 15 minute spot where you came into the class and read the paper aloud to the professor, then he read it on his own and graded it there right in front of you. I can say that it was sort of intimidating at first, but it forced me to read my papers out loud before I even got to the point of turning them in. This helped me to correct the silly mistakes that I would of never found had I not read it out loud to myself first.
Short and sweet
I just got access to the computer (since it’s been down), and class starts in a few minutes, so I’ll have to make this quick. I hope it makes sense.
I thought that the debate over the politics of bilingual education is interesting. On one hand, you’ve got people who insist that non-native (I guess that’s what you’d call them, sorry if I am being unPC here) speakers of English should assimilate into the English-speaking mainstream. On the other, you got those who advocate for linguistic and cultural pluralism. As for me, I really don’t know how I feel about the situation. I think that both sides present poignant, and very fair, arguments. I am interested to see how the rest of the class feels in regard to this issue.
Something else liked I thought was fascinating…the whole idea that language acquisition begins in children as young as babies – I guess like a year old or less. Apparently, a child can recognize the voice of its mother within a day…wild stuff. Also, I thought that it was cool to learn that research points out those infants do not learn vocabularies that are based on input provided by the parents. So I guess all that crazy talk that parents do with their kids isn’t needed after all, since they just seem to pick it up as the go. Does make them parrot-like? Sorry to all the mothers out there (or fathers), but I think so.
I know this is short, but I am pressed for time. This will have to do.
I thought that the debate over the politics of bilingual education is interesting. On one hand, you’ve got people who insist that non-native (I guess that’s what you’d call them, sorry if I am being unPC here) speakers of English should assimilate into the English-speaking mainstream. On the other, you got those who advocate for linguistic and cultural pluralism. As for me, I really don’t know how I feel about the situation. I think that both sides present poignant, and very fair, arguments. I am interested to see how the rest of the class feels in regard to this issue.
Something else liked I thought was fascinating…the whole idea that language acquisition begins in children as young as babies – I guess like a year old or less. Apparently, a child can recognize the voice of its mother within a day…wild stuff. Also, I thought that it was cool to learn that research points out those infants do not learn vocabularies that are based on input provided by the parents. So I guess all that crazy talk that parents do with their kids isn’t needed after all, since they just seem to pick it up as the go. Does make them parrot-like? Sorry to all the mothers out there (or fathers), but I think so.
I know this is short, but I am pressed for time. This will have to do.
How to become a better writer, reader, and listener
It seems to me the participants of Elbow’s teacherless writing class are like the cuts on a diamond. The writer is the main facet on top with the readers as the cuts around the sides that give the diamond its shape and sparkle. The main facet may be on top, but it needs the cuts on the sides to bring out its brilliance. For the diamond all the cuts are important in the overall appearance. The same is true for the participants of Elbow’s teacherless writing class. Everyone in the class is of equal importance. The writer is no more important than the reader and vice versa. The main point of this class as I see it is to help writers understand how multiple people react to their writing so that they can improve it. It trains readers to really pay attention to how a piece of writing makes them feel and be able to describe it. It also provides the writer with an opportunity to improve their listening skills.
At the beginning of the chapter Elbow says to imagine that you are blind and deaf, in “perpetual darkness and silence”. He goes and says, “You send out words as best you can but no words come back” (76). This statement reminded me of the blog I am writing about my son’s football season. I know I have several readers because they ask me when I will post another blog, but no one ever tells me what they think about it. I don’t ask partially because I am a little gun- shy when it comes to my writing, even though I know it would help me become a better writer to hear their reactions. Like the cuts in the diamond make it sparkle, I know the feedback would help add a little shimmer to my writing.
The problem I have with the teacherless writing class is that to actually start one I think every participant would need to read this chapter. When I first started to read it I thought it sounded good on paper, but I know from my own experiences, I am not very good at providing feedback to someone else which is a main part of this type of class. It was not until Elbow described pointing, summarizing, telling, and showing that I finally had some great ideas about how to provide meaningful feedback to another writer. I actually used some of these ideas with an essay and found that I was better able to formulate into words how the writing affected me. For example, in the essay I read I felt the writer was using the whole essay as a metaphor for what he was really trying to say. That would be Elbow’s #14 on the ‘showing’ tips.
I agree with Elbow that in this type of class negative comments should be banned for the first three or four classes (96). I am not an experienced writer so I have not had much opportunity to have my writing reviewed by another writer. The first time I did was a shock! After I gave my piece of writing to the reader the first thing he said to me was do I have thick skin? This conjured up all kinds of anxiety in me until he returned my paper and we talked about his reaction to my writing. He got a totally different impression of what I thought I was trying to relay. This was a great lesson for me about how once my writing leaves my hands; it can be interpreted in many ways. I think this lesson could have been learned without being put on the defense right away by the negative comment.
I thought Elbow’s advice to the writer on listening was as important as the feedback the reader provides for the writer. If the writer does not try and understand where the reader is coming from the feedback is useless. It will just drive a wedge between the writer and the reader maybe carrying over to future classes. When I read tabloid stories I almost always assume they are not true, but I have come to realize that there is always an element of truth somewhere in what gets reported. I believe the writer must think the same way about what the reader perceived.
I can see how this class would work as a workshop but I think only parts of it would be useful in a school setting. In school the teacher would have to act as the ‘general’ and not the teacher and hope that the students are mature enough to handle the process of this type of class.
At the beginning of the chapter Elbow says to imagine that you are blind and deaf, in “perpetual darkness and silence”. He goes and says, “You send out words as best you can but no words come back” (76). This statement reminded me of the blog I am writing about my son’s football season. I know I have several readers because they ask me when I will post another blog, but no one ever tells me what they think about it. I don’t ask partially because I am a little gun- shy when it comes to my writing, even though I know it would help me become a better writer to hear their reactions. Like the cuts in the diamond make it sparkle, I know the feedback would help add a little shimmer to my writing.
The problem I have with the teacherless writing class is that to actually start one I think every participant would need to read this chapter. When I first started to read it I thought it sounded good on paper, but I know from my own experiences, I am not very good at providing feedback to someone else which is a main part of this type of class. It was not until Elbow described pointing, summarizing, telling, and showing that I finally had some great ideas about how to provide meaningful feedback to another writer. I actually used some of these ideas with an essay and found that I was better able to formulate into words how the writing affected me. For example, in the essay I read I felt the writer was using the whole essay as a metaphor for what he was really trying to say. That would be Elbow’s #14 on the ‘showing’ tips.
I agree with Elbow that in this type of class negative comments should be banned for the first three or four classes (96). I am not an experienced writer so I have not had much opportunity to have my writing reviewed by another writer. The first time I did was a shock! After I gave my piece of writing to the reader the first thing he said to me was do I have thick skin? This conjured up all kinds of anxiety in me until he returned my paper and we talked about his reaction to my writing. He got a totally different impression of what I thought I was trying to relay. This was a great lesson for me about how once my writing leaves my hands; it can be interpreted in many ways. I think this lesson could have been learned without being put on the defense right away by the negative comment.
I thought Elbow’s advice to the writer on listening was as important as the feedback the reader provides for the writer. If the writer does not try and understand where the reader is coming from the feedback is useless. It will just drive a wedge between the writer and the reader maybe carrying over to future classes. When I read tabloid stories I almost always assume they are not true, but I have come to realize that there is always an element of truth somewhere in what gets reported. I believe the writer must think the same way about what the reader perceived.
I can see how this class would work as a workshop but I think only parts of it would be useful in a school setting. In school the teacher would have to act as the ‘general’ and not the teacher and hope that the students are mature enough to handle the process of this type of class.
The Teacherless Classroom
It was refreshing reading Elbow again. He’s a little bit more informal, while Williams is “textbookish.” Elbow has a lot of great theories and ideas, and the teacherless classroom is another one of those great ideas. Sometimes it seems difficult to implement Elbow’s ideas, and I found this one to also be one of those ideas. Like some other people have said, I wasn’t real sure which age group he was targeting when describing the teacherless classroom. While reading this chapter, I kept picturing adults in my head taking part in an activity like this. I can’t really imagine students in middle school and high school taking part in the teacherless classroom. Can this type of thing be implemented in the classroom with a teacher? What would the teacher’s role then be?
I really don’t see this type of thing working for young students. I know that when I was in middle school and high school, I was reluctant to share my writing with my peers unless it was my best friend. Also, I think with being that age, the reader is also reluctant to give constructive criticism because they don’t want someone to be mad at them or come across as being better than the other person. On the other hand, I think peer editing is very important for that age level, but not to the teacherless classroom extreme. It seems like this kind of thing would fall apart, as Elbow mentioned, because of commitment issues and other such things. I don’t even think I would have the time to participate in the teacherless classroom; it seems like a long process.
The thing I did like about this chapter was the discussion of “showing.” I think that is a very unique way of describing what you thought of someone’s writing. I know sometimes I can’t explain myself in words to make something make sense, but it helps when I can illustrate it in another way. I loved the idea of describing someone’s writing as a body part, the weather, clothing, etc. All of those things can have human characteristics, for example, a storm cloud could have the personality of being angry. If you use a storm cloud to describe a piece of writing, it could illustrate that the writing is dark, gloomy, etc. This would be a great activity to use with students because it also lets them use their imaginations.
I also think it is important to read your writing out loud. I know when I read my writing out loud, I catch mistakes that I wouldn’t have caught by simply reading it silently. I think this also helps your readers. It puts emotion into the writing, and they can also pick up if something doesn’t sound right.
This chapter really showed me how I can handle criticism. I’m the type of person that hates when people criticize my writing, so Elbow discussed some things I can keep in mind when people talk to me about my writing. The one thing I have an issue with is just sitting there and listening; I always interrupt to try and justify my reasons for doing something, but I never thought that that would stifle the reader from giving any further comments that might help me. In addition, I must remember that I am the final judge of my writing and not everyone sees a piece of writing in the same way.
So although the teacherless classroom seems difficult to implement, Elbow (like always) gave some really good ideas that I would like to try in the future.
I really don’t see this type of thing working for young students. I know that when I was in middle school and high school, I was reluctant to share my writing with my peers unless it was my best friend. Also, I think with being that age, the reader is also reluctant to give constructive criticism because they don’t want someone to be mad at them or come across as being better than the other person. On the other hand, I think peer editing is very important for that age level, but not to the teacherless classroom extreme. It seems like this kind of thing would fall apart, as Elbow mentioned, because of commitment issues and other such things. I don’t even think I would have the time to participate in the teacherless classroom; it seems like a long process.
The thing I did like about this chapter was the discussion of “showing.” I think that is a very unique way of describing what you thought of someone’s writing. I know sometimes I can’t explain myself in words to make something make sense, but it helps when I can illustrate it in another way. I loved the idea of describing someone’s writing as a body part, the weather, clothing, etc. All of those things can have human characteristics, for example, a storm cloud could have the personality of being angry. If you use a storm cloud to describe a piece of writing, it could illustrate that the writing is dark, gloomy, etc. This would be a great activity to use with students because it also lets them use their imaginations.
I also think it is important to read your writing out loud. I know when I read my writing out loud, I catch mistakes that I wouldn’t have caught by simply reading it silently. I think this also helps your readers. It puts emotion into the writing, and they can also pick up if something doesn’t sound right.
This chapter really showed me how I can handle criticism. I’m the type of person that hates when people criticize my writing, so Elbow discussed some things I can keep in mind when people talk to me about my writing. The one thing I have an issue with is just sitting there and listening; I always interrupt to try and justify my reasons for doing something, but I never thought that that would stifle the reader from giving any further comments that might help me. In addition, I must remember that I am the final judge of my writing and not everyone sees a piece of writing in the same way.
So although the teacherless classroom seems difficult to implement, Elbow (like always) gave some really good ideas that I would like to try in the future.
Thinking on Past Experiences
This was a nice welcome back to Elbow for me. I can relate to this entire chapter because last year I was involved in a writing group. There was actually a teacher present for this one, but he seemed to more or less fulfill the role of chairman that Elbow describes. "Teacher" was only his technical title. He read some of his own works and asked for our feedback as well because he said that even though he was leading our class, no writer ever outgrows the feedback of others.
I have to agree with his statement. When I first began reading my writing out loud in elementary school, I loved it. I had always been drawn to both performing and writing and it was a way for me to display two favorite hobbies of mine. When the concept of peer feedback was introduced in middle school, it became a bit more of an intimidating procedure. Sometimes when you write something that you are so in love with, it's hard to put it out there open to the criticism of others.
I felt this the most in college poetry workshops. Poetry, especially what I was writing at the time of the classes, is immensely personal. For me, it wasn't just about impacting others; it was using my own life experiences and feelings to make that impact. When my words failed to do so with a member of the class, my initial instinct was to become defensive, to think, "Well, they're not in my head so they just don’t understand where I'm coming from." But as Elbow says, it's our job as writers to "get things inside someone else's head" (76).
I started to really listen to the criticism and to not be so emotional or take anything as a personal attack. I realized that my classmates had a lot of good things to say. In some cases, their suggestions made me go back and reanalyze me writing. I often discovered by reading it out loud that what they were saying had merit, and that perhaps I could spend a little more time into clarifying certain sections of my work. In other cases, I played around with implementing their suggestions and realized that I still preferred the original. And so I left it. After all, as I said, writing, particularly poetry, can be very personal and it's important for the writer to be happy with it.
As Katelyn mentioned in her blog, everytime I read something like this it inspires me to want to be part of a writing group or to start one up. I never write as much as I should, and it's wasted talent. It's because I'm not good at disciplining myself, and because I am one of those people that "undermines my efforts at writing" (80). And along with taking in the critiques of other group members, I also get to experience those really positive moments when someone connects with your writing. It's a feeling that I'd like to experience more often.
I have to agree with his statement. When I first began reading my writing out loud in elementary school, I loved it. I had always been drawn to both performing and writing and it was a way for me to display two favorite hobbies of mine. When the concept of peer feedback was introduced in middle school, it became a bit more of an intimidating procedure. Sometimes when you write something that you are so in love with, it's hard to put it out there open to the criticism of others.
I felt this the most in college poetry workshops. Poetry, especially what I was writing at the time of the classes, is immensely personal. For me, it wasn't just about impacting others; it was using my own life experiences and feelings to make that impact. When my words failed to do so with a member of the class, my initial instinct was to become defensive, to think, "Well, they're not in my head so they just don’t understand where I'm coming from." But as Elbow says, it's our job as writers to "get things inside someone else's head" (76).
I started to really listen to the criticism and to not be so emotional or take anything as a personal attack. I realized that my classmates had a lot of good things to say. In some cases, their suggestions made me go back and reanalyze me writing. I often discovered by reading it out loud that what they were saying had merit, and that perhaps I could spend a little more time into clarifying certain sections of my work. In other cases, I played around with implementing their suggestions and realized that I still preferred the original. And so I left it. After all, as I said, writing, particularly poetry, can be very personal and it's important for the writer to be happy with it.
As Katelyn mentioned in her blog, everytime I read something like this it inspires me to want to be part of a writing group or to start one up. I never write as much as I should, and it's wasted talent. It's because I'm not good at disciplining myself, and because I am one of those people that "undermines my efforts at writing" (80). And along with taking in the critiques of other group members, I also get to experience those really positive moments when someone connects with your writing. It's a feeling that I'd like to experience more often.
Reading about the teacherless writing class made me think of my writers group. We don't meet every week. Instead, we meet every month. There is diversity in our group: we have people who write poetry, childrens books, fantasy, memoir, mystery, young adult, essay..... We have probably 20 members total, but only about 7-10 of us make it on a regular basis. Each member reads their piece aloud and the other members offer feedback including first reactions, confusing parts, strong images, etc... We try to be very positive, but we also try to strengthen the writing. At one point, we tried to get everyone to bring in copies, but it didn't work out. It was hard to know how many copies to bring plus it takes extra time, effort, and money to make multiple copies of your work. It didn't last very long (maybe 2 months). Even when we did bring the copies, we still read our work out loud. Every one could follow along on their copy and write reactions/ suggestions in the margins.
Reading aloud is extremely beneficial. I know some people say how they would still have problems with this because writing is so personal, but it really is worth it to push yourself. I am not not outgoing in the classroom as a student, and I never liked giving speeches or sharing my work. (which is ironic since I will be a teacher) When I first joined my writing club, I didn't want to read aloud. I had someone else read it for me. However, they didn't read it with the same emphasis or flow as I would have. He stumbled over some of the sentences and made me want to snatch it out of his hands and do it myself. After that first time, I started to read for myself and I also didn't have to worry about looking around the room at everyone's reaction since I was engaged in reading. Like Elbow, I feel more empowered reading aloud to my audience.
Reading aloud is extremely beneficial. I know some people say how they would still have problems with this because writing is so personal, but it really is worth it to push yourself. I am not not outgoing in the classroom as a student, and I never liked giving speeches or sharing my work. (which is ironic since I will be a teacher) When I first joined my writing club, I didn't want to read aloud. I had someone else read it for me. However, they didn't read it with the same emphasis or flow as I would have. He stumbled over some of the sentences and made me want to snatch it out of his hands and do it myself. After that first time, I started to read for myself and I also didn't have to worry about looking around the room at everyone's reaction since I was engaged in reading. Like Elbow, I feel more empowered reading aloud to my audience.
Teacherless class...
I think the idea of having a teacherless class is great, but it is nearly impossible to get a group of seven people together that wants to do this. I personally am extremely busy with school and three jobs. It would be very difficult for me to make time to meet with a group for ten weeks. I also don’t think I would be able to find six other people who would be interested in a writing group. I think the teacherless class could be beneficial, but I think it would be hard to put together.
Elbow makes some great points when he talks about a teacherless class. It should take off the pressure of trying to impress the teacher. He says that you can designate a leader for the group. It would probably be a good idea to have a leader if you are in a writing group. This person can keep track of time and make sure everyone gets to share their writings. It can work with or without a leader, but having a leader makes it more organized.
Being involved in a writing group outside of the classroom allows you to share you writing and get some type of feedback. This feedback will hopefully improve your writing. Reading aloud to the group allows you to hear what you wrote. Does it make sense? Does is flow? These are things you and the rest of the group will be able to point out. You will know whether or not your listeners understand what you wrote. It might make sense as you are writing, but it might not make sense to your audience when you are reading. This is something that can be very beneficial to you as a writer.
On the other hand, some groups prefer not to read their writings out loud. They might pass their writings around the room and silently read them. This is a great way to make corrections to the paper. I personally want to look at the paper to make corrections. I also want to hear the paper being read so I can tell the person whether or not it flows. This is very time consuming, so it might not be a great idea when you are with a group of seven.
I think we can take Elbow’s advice by sharing your writings with a few people rather than seven. I doubt there are many people who are able to meet at the same time every week for ten weeks. It would be hard to actually find people who would want to. I love getting feedback from other people. It helps with my writing skills. It gives you the opportunity to find out what people are looking for. I enjoy having the writing workshops in class. It is basically having a teacherless class.
Elbow makes some great points when he talks about a teacherless class. It should take off the pressure of trying to impress the teacher. He says that you can designate a leader for the group. It would probably be a good idea to have a leader if you are in a writing group. This person can keep track of time and make sure everyone gets to share their writings. It can work with or without a leader, but having a leader makes it more organized.
Being involved in a writing group outside of the classroom allows you to share you writing and get some type of feedback. This feedback will hopefully improve your writing. Reading aloud to the group allows you to hear what you wrote. Does it make sense? Does is flow? These are things you and the rest of the group will be able to point out. You will know whether or not your listeners understand what you wrote. It might make sense as you are writing, but it might not make sense to your audience when you are reading. This is something that can be very beneficial to you as a writer.
On the other hand, some groups prefer not to read their writings out loud. They might pass their writings around the room and silently read them. This is a great way to make corrections to the paper. I personally want to look at the paper to make corrections. I also want to hear the paper being read so I can tell the person whether or not it flows. This is very time consuming, so it might not be a great idea when you are with a group of seven.
I think we can take Elbow’s advice by sharing your writings with a few people rather than seven. I doubt there are many people who are able to meet at the same time every week for ten weeks. It would be hard to actually find people who would want to. I love getting feedback from other people. It helps with my writing skills. It gives you the opportunity to find out what people are looking for. I enjoy having the writing workshops in class. It is basically having a teacherless class.
Cool & Crazy
I’m so happy to be reading Elbow, again. I have missed him. For me, it would be absolutely fascinating to partake in a teacherless class. I’ve learned more about my writing from creative writing circles then any other place. You really can tell when you have written something good, or when you have not. Often, what I thought was my best work was not, and vice versa. This never made any sense to me, except maybe I was trying to hard. Clearly, I have never been in a class like Peter Elbow mentions, but I would love to.
Elbow states, “It is not true that tons of adjectives always make writing boring; it’s not true that the passive voice is always weak; it’s not true that abstractions are always vague; it’s not true that examples always make things clearer. In writing, anything can do anything” (97). This contradicts most of what I have been taught, however; I agree with it. Elbow really embodies the idea that writing equals freedom, which, to me, is a breath of fresh air. At the same time this idea kind of confuses me, because I was always told what makes good writing. Now, I’m not so sure what makes good writing. There is no right recipe or formula, which makes it even more challenging. I guess it is all about the experience the reader goes through, and that is the point of his teacherless classes.
I was always told that writing is about showing not telling, but I didn’t know feedback was the same. Elbow says, “To help you in telling, pretend that there is a whole set of instruments you have hooked up to yourself which record everything that occurs in you: not just pulse, blood pressure, EEG, and so on, but also ones which tell every image, feeling, thought, and word that happens in you” (90). Wow! That is a lot to think about, and I believe it is much easier said than done. Yes, I can do an activity like this, but I don’t know if I can do it in front of the writer. I believe this would take A LOT of practice. The human mind filters so much information that I think it is nearly impossible to show the writer what you are truly feeling. Nobody wants to be the person to tell a person that their writing sucks, and no writer wants to hear it. Elbow explained how this would be difficult in the first few weeks. However, I don’t think it would be any easier a few weeks into the teacherless class.
I think Elbow’s ideas for showing, are kind of silly, fun, and slightly crazy. Can you imagine walking in on some of these activities? I definitely would want to try them before I dismiss them, but some of his ideas are extremely wacky. If I were the writer, I’m not sure what I would get out of it. I mean if one part of my story was like my big toe and another part was similar to my head, I would be confused. Is that a compliment? I did like some of his ideas, such as the drawing and the ten-minute writing exercises.
Overall, I do believe this type of class can be very beneficial for improving writing, if the right groups of people are put together. I believe I am rather open-minded and I enjoy Elbow for stepping outside the box with his ideas.
Elbow states, “It is not true that tons of adjectives always make writing boring; it’s not true that the passive voice is always weak; it’s not true that abstractions are always vague; it’s not true that examples always make things clearer. In writing, anything can do anything” (97). This contradicts most of what I have been taught, however; I agree with it. Elbow really embodies the idea that writing equals freedom, which, to me, is a breath of fresh air. At the same time this idea kind of confuses me, because I was always told what makes good writing. Now, I’m not so sure what makes good writing. There is no right recipe or formula, which makes it even more challenging. I guess it is all about the experience the reader goes through, and that is the point of his teacherless classes.
I was always told that writing is about showing not telling, but I didn’t know feedback was the same. Elbow says, “To help you in telling, pretend that there is a whole set of instruments you have hooked up to yourself which record everything that occurs in you: not just pulse, blood pressure, EEG, and so on, but also ones which tell every image, feeling, thought, and word that happens in you” (90). Wow! That is a lot to think about, and I believe it is much easier said than done. Yes, I can do an activity like this, but I don’t know if I can do it in front of the writer. I believe this would take A LOT of practice. The human mind filters so much information that I think it is nearly impossible to show the writer what you are truly feeling. Nobody wants to be the person to tell a person that their writing sucks, and no writer wants to hear it. Elbow explained how this would be difficult in the first few weeks. However, I don’t think it would be any easier a few weeks into the teacherless class.
I think Elbow’s ideas for showing, are kind of silly, fun, and slightly crazy. Can you imagine walking in on some of these activities? I definitely would want to try them before I dismiss them, but some of his ideas are extremely wacky. If I were the writer, I’m not sure what I would get out of it. I mean if one part of my story was like my big toe and another part was similar to my head, I would be confused. Is that a compliment? I did like some of his ideas, such as the drawing and the ten-minute writing exercises.
Overall, I do believe this type of class can be very beneficial for improving writing, if the right groups of people are put together. I believe I am rather open-minded and I enjoy Elbow for stepping outside the box with his ideas.
Tuesday, October 20, 2009
A Teacherless, Studentless Classroom?
Elbow’s teacherless classroom seems to be a thing of complexity, a strange amount of forces thrown together which seem to converge into perfection. The thing is, I feel such a grouping of writers would fail more often than not. For one, writing is extremely personal- I still seize up at the very thought of sharing it. For the majority of people, “getting things into someone else’s head” is an alarming concept (76). I would rather, as Elbow suggests, play the coward and protect my own feelings. Still, adults with chaotic schedules often intend for the best, but we all know how well our grandiose plans fare. As Elbow phrases it, “all too often it is only the thought of the teacher that gets use to come to class” (113). The teacherless classroom requires a certain sort of student chemistry, as well as staunch motivation to improvement and learning- a combination surely akin to the Fountain of Youth.
However, Elbow’s insights into the idiosyncrasies of writers was primarily spot on. I am ever so apologetic when it comes to sharing my writing. It has something to do, I’m certain, with self-preservation. If I apologize in advance, announcing my work to be flawed due to whatever excuse, I am met with an understanding audience if they find it to be so. On the other spectrum, if the reader underestimates my piece, and then finds my work to be stellar, they are pleasantly surprised and may even consider me to be a genius.
The reactions of others to my writings, or toward general literature, does, unfortunately, cause me to label them from the off. Elbow finds that “if you oversimplify and pigeon-hole everybody- saying to yourself, “this is the grammar nut, this is the sentimental one, this is the overly logical one”- this too is a way of not really listening to them” (104). For this, I am guilty. The human mind loves to categorize, after all, that is what caused the invention of the constellations. Although, as Elbow imparts, variety is essential; in this instance I feel it shouldn’t be sought after by expecting certain reactions from others consistently.
Possibly the best section of Elbow’s approach, for me, was the bit about showing. The type of descriptive reaction that Elbow presents seems absolutely unique, revealing and fun. Sharing one’s response through comparing writing to the weather, clothing , or an animal seems an entirely fresh idea, and one that I feel would be at home in any classroom. Students are so locked into typical forms of expression, and so, showing would be definite means to broadening comprehension.
However, Elbow’s insights into the idiosyncrasies of writers was primarily spot on. I am ever so apologetic when it comes to sharing my writing. It has something to do, I’m certain, with self-preservation. If I apologize in advance, announcing my work to be flawed due to whatever excuse, I am met with an understanding audience if they find it to be so. On the other spectrum, if the reader underestimates my piece, and then finds my work to be stellar, they are pleasantly surprised and may even consider me to be a genius.
The reactions of others to my writings, or toward general literature, does, unfortunately, cause me to label them from the off. Elbow finds that “if you oversimplify and pigeon-hole everybody- saying to yourself, “this is the grammar nut, this is the sentimental one, this is the overly logical one”- this too is a way of not really listening to them” (104). For this, I am guilty. The human mind loves to categorize, after all, that is what caused the invention of the constellations. Although, as Elbow imparts, variety is essential; in this instance I feel it shouldn’t be sought after by expecting certain reactions from others consistently.
Possibly the best section of Elbow’s approach, for me, was the bit about showing. The type of descriptive reaction that Elbow presents seems absolutely unique, revealing and fun. Sharing one’s response through comparing writing to the weather, clothing , or an animal seems an entirely fresh idea, and one that I feel would be at home in any classroom. Students are so locked into typical forms of expression, and so, showing would be definite means to broadening comprehension.
show don't tell
I am taking a methods for teaching secondary English class this semester. The class requires us to get into groups and teach different lesson plans for the rest of our classmates. The group that presented this past week created a lesson that revolved around figurative language. They asked us to think about a place that is special to us and to write about it in exaggerated metaphors, similes and personification. I was initially reminded of Elbow’s previous chapter where he said that writing in extended metaphors helps to avoid “writers block.” It was one of the most cathartic experiences I’ve had in a long time. At the end of the class, we all had the chance to listen to and share our work with everyone else. It was a great experience. I love listening to others share their work, and I was surprised at how inspired my own writing was. Afterwards, a friend of mine in the class who felt the same way about the lesson said that it would be fun to start a writing club. Elbow’s chapter leads me to believe that I now must become involved in a teacherless writing class. Who wants to join?!
This has been my favorite Elbow chapter so far. I like that he specifies that the group is not purely a poetry club or a short story writing workshop. Elbow encourages us to bring a diverse variety of writing to these groups. He writes, “The poet needs the experience of the businessman reading his poem just as the business man needs the experience of the poet reading his committee report…Whenever people work in only one genre , they gradually become blind to certain excrescences” (79). I completely agree. I feel that diversity in writing and audience only strengthens a writer’s skill and wisdom.
I really like the ideas and prompts that Elbow lists to write about if one cannot think of a topic. This could be a great way to incorporate a writing workshop or club within the classroom. These could also be simple exercises for students to do in journals and freewrites. To mix it up a bit, the teacher could change the subject or genre of the writing exercise. One day the topic could be “You walk into your house after school and David Hasselhoff is sitting at your kitchen table.” The next day the topic could be a frequent question that might appear on a standardized test.
I love that Elbow makes the distinction between showing and telling. He explains it really well in this quotation, “Telling is like looking inside yourself to see what you can report. Showing is like installing a window in the top of your head and then taking a bow so the writer can see for himself” (92.) I had a creative writing teacher who would always tell my class to “show and not tell.” He wanted us to express ourselves in more abstract ways rather than just simply state every little thing throughout the story. Part of reading is being able to interpret and create meaning on one’s own terms. Showing allows readers to be able to do so. Additionally, showing a writer one’s opinions and reactions to the writer’s work can result in a similar way.
From now on when I read someone else’s work, I want to make a noise or compare it to a
vegetable. I’m serious. Elbow is a genius. His method of giving a writer feedback through metaphorical “showing” is weirdly awesome. And it actually makes a lot of sense to me. If I had the chance to give feedback to some of my favorite authors this is what I would say…
Raymond Carver: “Cathedral” made me feel like I was staring up into a rising sun through closed eyes. The yellow and pink were both transparent and opaque at the same time.
Maya Angelou: When I read your prose, I eat it. It’s a big bowl of vegetable soup, and it slowly drips down my chin as I take a big bite.
This is such an inspiring way to give and receive feedback on writing. It challenges a person’s mode of thinking. It forces people to write and create in their responses. I could go on and on about this chapter. I am eager to see what the discussion’s group activity will be for the class.
This has been my favorite Elbow chapter so far. I like that he specifies that the group is not purely a poetry club or a short story writing workshop. Elbow encourages us to bring a diverse variety of writing to these groups. He writes, “The poet needs the experience of the businessman reading his poem just as the business man needs the experience of the poet reading his committee report…Whenever people work in only one genre , they gradually become blind to certain excrescences” (79). I completely agree. I feel that diversity in writing and audience only strengthens a writer’s skill and wisdom.
I really like the ideas and prompts that Elbow lists to write about if one cannot think of a topic. This could be a great way to incorporate a writing workshop or club within the classroom. These could also be simple exercises for students to do in journals and freewrites. To mix it up a bit, the teacher could change the subject or genre of the writing exercise. One day the topic could be “You walk into your house after school and David Hasselhoff is sitting at your kitchen table.” The next day the topic could be a frequent question that might appear on a standardized test.
I love that Elbow makes the distinction between showing and telling. He explains it really well in this quotation, “Telling is like looking inside yourself to see what you can report. Showing is like installing a window in the top of your head and then taking a bow so the writer can see for himself” (92.) I had a creative writing teacher who would always tell my class to “show and not tell.” He wanted us to express ourselves in more abstract ways rather than just simply state every little thing throughout the story. Part of reading is being able to interpret and create meaning on one’s own terms. Showing allows readers to be able to do so. Additionally, showing a writer one’s opinions and reactions to the writer’s work can result in a similar way.
From now on when I read someone else’s work, I want to make a noise or compare it to a
vegetable. I’m serious. Elbow is a genius. His method of giving a writer feedback through metaphorical “showing” is weirdly awesome. And it actually makes a lot of sense to me. If I had the chance to give feedback to some of my favorite authors this is what I would say…
Raymond Carver: “Cathedral” made me feel like I was staring up into a rising sun through closed eyes. The yellow and pink were both transparent and opaque at the same time.
Maya Angelou: When I read your prose, I eat it. It’s a big bowl of vegetable soup, and it slowly drips down my chin as I take a big bite.
This is such an inspiring way to give and receive feedback on writing. It challenges a person’s mode of thinking. It forces people to write and create in their responses. I could go on and on about this chapter. I am eager to see what the discussion’s group activity will be for the class.
Something I can wrap my head around...
After the weeks of Williams, I am surprised to say that I welcomed reading Elbow again. At least he doesn’t make my brain hurt too much afterwards.
This chapter was interesting as he detailed the different roles one would play in the teacherless writing class. While I can see the benefits to this method of teaching, I couldn’t help wondering if he meant for this to be used in middle or high schools, or at the university level and beyond. I think that there would be major trust issues in middle and high school if this was used regularly. I don’t think that I would have felt comfortable at ages 13-18 having to share my writing with others, and then having to listen to them respond.
One point Elbow makes about the procedure of these groups is about reading your writing out loud. I have learned, recently, how effective this can be. Usually I read over something I’ve written silently in my head. But, I have started to read my work out loud, and it has shown me, more than once, where I had technical difficulties, or meanings that really weren’t as clear as I thought they were. I even have my 9-year old do this for her language arts homework. She often gets mad at me when I tell her that something she has written doesn’t make sense, or is confusing, or doesn’t sound right. Now, I have her read it out loud, and she is starting to pick up on mistakes or awkwardness in her writing.
Some of what Elbow said did make me wonder. On p. 77, he talks about how writers don’t need advice on what changes to make. I beg to disagree. Sometimes, the writer can be too close, too intimately involved in a piece of writing that he can’t tell when a part doesn’t make sense, or when an area doesn’t work with the rest of the piece. I feel this kind of feedback from others can be just as useful as telling how a piece of writing made you feel.
I also wondered how, as a reader, you can be completely honest with your reactions to a piece. I may not realize that I dislike a piece of writing because I am simply overtired. I think that readers always bring extra baggage with them when they are reading. I am tired, I am cold, I have to do this tomorrow, Why did my boss say that to me? I find it hard, a lot of times, to completely shut put all that is going on around and within me, to be able to concentrate on reading. Elbow addresses this a little bit, but I don’t think he addresses how to turn this all off.
Finally, I was a bit confused by Elbow’s statements to the listener. Elbow tell us not to try to understand what people tell you, but understand how they tell you. But throughout the entire chapter up to that point, it was about telling a writer what happened to you when reading the writing. If I am supposed to focus on what my experience was, do I then need to focus also on how I express what I experienced? Should the listener/writer focus on hearing my message or my delivery? What's more important--the message or the means by which it is delivered?
As I said before, I think that this concept is a good idea, but I am not sure that I could or would use it in the highly volatile atmosphere of middle or high school. There are too many ways for things to be misinterpreted by writers who are still unsure of themselves and others.
This chapter was interesting as he detailed the different roles one would play in the teacherless writing class. While I can see the benefits to this method of teaching, I couldn’t help wondering if he meant for this to be used in middle or high schools, or at the university level and beyond. I think that there would be major trust issues in middle and high school if this was used regularly. I don’t think that I would have felt comfortable at ages 13-18 having to share my writing with others, and then having to listen to them respond.
One point Elbow makes about the procedure of these groups is about reading your writing out loud. I have learned, recently, how effective this can be. Usually I read over something I’ve written silently in my head. But, I have started to read my work out loud, and it has shown me, more than once, where I had technical difficulties, or meanings that really weren’t as clear as I thought they were. I even have my 9-year old do this for her language arts homework. She often gets mad at me when I tell her that something she has written doesn’t make sense, or is confusing, or doesn’t sound right. Now, I have her read it out loud, and she is starting to pick up on mistakes or awkwardness in her writing.
Some of what Elbow said did make me wonder. On p. 77, he talks about how writers don’t need advice on what changes to make. I beg to disagree. Sometimes, the writer can be too close, too intimately involved in a piece of writing that he can’t tell when a part doesn’t make sense, or when an area doesn’t work with the rest of the piece. I feel this kind of feedback from others can be just as useful as telling how a piece of writing made you feel.
I also wondered how, as a reader, you can be completely honest with your reactions to a piece. I may not realize that I dislike a piece of writing because I am simply overtired. I think that readers always bring extra baggage with them when they are reading. I am tired, I am cold, I have to do this tomorrow, Why did my boss say that to me? I find it hard, a lot of times, to completely shut put all that is going on around and within me, to be able to concentrate on reading. Elbow addresses this a little bit, but I don’t think he addresses how to turn this all off.
Finally, I was a bit confused by Elbow’s statements to the listener. Elbow tell us not to try to understand what people tell you, but understand how they tell you. But throughout the entire chapter up to that point, it was about telling a writer what happened to you when reading the writing. If I am supposed to focus on what my experience was, do I then need to focus also on how I express what I experienced? Should the listener/writer focus on hearing my message or my delivery? What's more important--the message or the means by which it is delivered?
As I said before, I think that this concept is a good idea, but I am not sure that I could or would use it in the highly volatile atmosphere of middle or high school. There are too many ways for things to be misinterpreted by writers who are still unsure of themselves and others.
Wonderfully Specific Advice
Elbow has obviously been involved in many writing classes and knows the pitfalls. I myself took several post-college, non-credit, creative writing classes, and while I enjoyed all of them, there were several problems in each. Most typically, people's critiques of fellow students' writings were nebulous... i.e. "I really liked it" or "there was something about it I just couldn't relate to."
Elbow's suggestions for summarizing the meaning of a work of writing (p.86) and describing a reader's reactions in terms of metaphor ("showing", p. 90) are wonderfully specific, and I wish we had been given them in my classes.
Another problem that's pretty universal in writing classes is people's discomfort with having others critique their writing. Elbow's "Advice to the Writer on Listening" (p. 101-106) does a great job of explaining what the purposes of criticism are, and how writers should process and evaluate the criticism. I especially liked his advice of "don't apologize for your writing" because I remember one student who drove everyone crazy by prefacing his writing with "oh, this is really dumb." (I later found out this guy was a former circus clown, but that's another story.)
I also agree that a good writing class should be neither too nice nor too combative. I was once in a class that eventually turned into a mutual admiration society, and while I loved hearing what was good in my writing, I would have learned more if I'd been told what could have been improved or expanded. In contrast, another Fiction Writing class had certain students who got into constant, predictable arguements. It got so bad that I thought the class should have been called Friction Writing rather than Fiction Writing!
I think this chapter is one that writing teachers and students should be required to read. I can also see it being something that teachers would refer to year after year.
Elbow's suggestions for summarizing the meaning of a work of writing (p.86) and describing a reader's reactions in terms of metaphor ("showing", p. 90) are wonderfully specific, and I wish we had been given them in my classes.
Another problem that's pretty universal in writing classes is people's discomfort with having others critique their writing. Elbow's "Advice to the Writer on Listening" (p. 101-106) does a great job of explaining what the purposes of criticism are, and how writers should process and evaluate the criticism. I especially liked his advice of "don't apologize for your writing" because I remember one student who drove everyone crazy by prefacing his writing with "oh, this is really dumb." (I later found out this guy was a former circus clown, but that's another story.)
I also agree that a good writing class should be neither too nice nor too combative. I was once in a class that eventually turned into a mutual admiration society, and while I loved hearing what was good in my writing, I would have learned more if I'd been told what could have been improved or expanded. In contrast, another Fiction Writing class had certain students who got into constant, predictable arguements. It got so bad that I thought the class should have been called Friction Writing rather than Fiction Writing!
I think this chapter is one that writing teachers and students should be required to read. I can also see it being something that teachers would refer to year after year.
Before this week’s reading, I had never heard of the “teacherless writing class.” I think it sounds like a great idea if you have the time to experience once. Elbow mentions that it will take a commitment of about 10 weeks.
Monday, October 19, 2009
Yay! Elbow's Back!
I can’t even begin to describe the joy I felt when I realized we were back to Elbow this week!
I agree with Amber in that it would be difficult to find six or seven people dedicated to improving their writing and willing to make such a commitment, but as I read this chapter, I found myself wondering about the ways that the teacherless writing class could be adapted for use in the middle or high school classroom. I think I liked this chapter so much because of the experience we recently had when we peer edited each other Literacy Narratives. Reading my own writing out loud for two of my classmates gave me the opportunity to hear what my words actually were saying. Elbow says, “When you read your writing out loud, you often see things in it that you don’t see any other way. Hearing your own words out loud gives you the vicarious experience of being someone else.” (82) I could immediately tell what worked and what didn’t in my narrative when I read it out loud; things that I would have never seen otherwise.
I also loved the page and a half of writing ideas he gives us. There is nothing so hard as trying to write when you can’t think of a topic AND you’re uninspired to boot. His ideas (pgs 80-81) are creative and thought provoking. Topics such as describing a favorite place as if you are blind or deaf and can only know it through your other senses. I know I’m going to use that idea!
Finally I like that Elbow gives us advice on reacting to another’s writing, but more importantly, he advises us on how to hear what others say about our own writing. Nothing makes me crazier than, when someone is about to read something they’ve written, they begin to make excuses or they tell me they’re not happy with it. If that is the case, then why have me read it? By making excuses for our writing we are telling the reader how to feel instead of letting them determine that for themselves. It is highly personal and often hard to hear honest responses to our writing, but as Elbow says, we really can’t improve our writing any other way.
I agree with Amber in that it would be difficult to find six or seven people dedicated to improving their writing and willing to make such a commitment, but as I read this chapter, I found myself wondering about the ways that the teacherless writing class could be adapted for use in the middle or high school classroom. I think I liked this chapter so much because of the experience we recently had when we peer edited each other Literacy Narratives. Reading my own writing out loud for two of my classmates gave me the opportunity to hear what my words actually were saying. Elbow says, “When you read your writing out loud, you often see things in it that you don’t see any other way. Hearing your own words out loud gives you the vicarious experience of being someone else.” (82) I could immediately tell what worked and what didn’t in my narrative when I read it out loud; things that I would have never seen otherwise.
I also loved the page and a half of writing ideas he gives us. There is nothing so hard as trying to write when you can’t think of a topic AND you’re uninspired to boot. His ideas (pgs 80-81) are creative and thought provoking. Topics such as describing a favorite place as if you are blind or deaf and can only know it through your other senses. I know I’m going to use that idea!
Finally I like that Elbow gives us advice on reacting to another’s writing, but more importantly, he advises us on how to hear what others say about our own writing. Nothing makes me crazier than, when someone is about to read something they’ve written, they begin to make excuses or they tell me they’re not happy with it. If that is the case, then why have me read it? By making excuses for our writing we are telling the reader how to feel instead of letting them determine that for themselves. It is highly personal and often hard to hear honest responses to our writing, but as Elbow says, we really can’t improve our writing any other way.
Brain Relief
This week we went back to reading Elbow and I felt like my brain got a little relief...
Teacherless writing seems like a great idea if you can find the time to do it. I can't really imagine finding a group of seven people who are all genuinely interested in improving their writing and also have the dedication to stick with the commitment. Regardless, I think that the advice that Elbow gives us on how to critique others' papers can be extremely useful in the classroom.
One of the sections that really stuck out to me was on page 83. It is here that Elbow talks about the nervousness we all feel when we share with our audience. "Even if you don't feel it (nervousness) as you write, that only means you've separated your experience of audience from your experience of writing." He says that reading out loud brings the sense of audience back to us. That is so true, isn't it? I've never thought about it this way before, but fear of audience is one of the major reasons that I came to mental roadblocks when actually writing papers.
Elbow makes a point to tell us that we should tell the writer how we were feeling as we were reading over the piece. This is a great way to really get insight into how your writing is making other people feel. So many times writing workshops consist of our peers picking out missing commas and spelling errors. I can find them myself. What would be far more helpful to me is to know how my paper is affecting the reader. I think it would be somewhat disheartening to pour your heart into something only to have your peers give you a negative reaction. I do, however, think that by doing this we would find a way to reach the audience on a deeper level, and therefore be better writers. In a more technical sense, it could help to point out areas of the paper that may be confusing to the reader.
I absolutely loved the metaphorical exercises (90). As I said in the past, I generally don't think in metaphors. It could just be the dork in me coming out, but I really do think I would have a lot of fun using these drills. I think it would be helpful to the people doing the critiquing because they would be forced to think outside of the box. Maybe if I practiced with his list of metaphors, I would have a much easier time of coming up with metaphors of my own.
Finally, I think that one of the most import statements that Elbow makes (at least to me), is that it is the writer's job to make his/her own decisions. I think it is important to listen to what others have to say, but ultimately your piece of writing is in your own hands.
Teacherless writing seems like a great idea if you can find the time to do it. I can't really imagine finding a group of seven people who are all genuinely interested in improving their writing and also have the dedication to stick with the commitment. Regardless, I think that the advice that Elbow gives us on how to critique others' papers can be extremely useful in the classroom.
One of the sections that really stuck out to me was on page 83. It is here that Elbow talks about the nervousness we all feel when we share with our audience. "Even if you don't feel it (nervousness) as you write, that only means you've separated your experience of audience from your experience of writing." He says that reading out loud brings the sense of audience back to us. That is so true, isn't it? I've never thought about it this way before, but fear of audience is one of the major reasons that I came to mental roadblocks when actually writing papers.
Elbow makes a point to tell us that we should tell the writer how we were feeling as we were reading over the piece. This is a great way to really get insight into how your writing is making other people feel. So many times writing workshops consist of our peers picking out missing commas and spelling errors. I can find them myself. What would be far more helpful to me is to know how my paper is affecting the reader. I think it would be somewhat disheartening to pour your heart into something only to have your peers give you a negative reaction. I do, however, think that by doing this we would find a way to reach the audience on a deeper level, and therefore be better writers. In a more technical sense, it could help to point out areas of the paper that may be confusing to the reader.
I absolutely loved the metaphorical exercises (90). As I said in the past, I generally don't think in metaphors. It could just be the dork in me coming out, but I really do think I would have a lot of fun using these drills. I think it would be helpful to the people doing the critiquing because they would be forced to think outside of the box. Maybe if I practiced with his list of metaphors, I would have a much easier time of coming up with metaphors of my own.
Finally, I think that one of the most import statements that Elbow makes (at least to me), is that it is the writer's job to make his/her own decisions. I think it is important to listen to what others have to say, but ultimately your piece of writing is in your own hands.
Saturday, October 17, 2009
And it's back to Elbow..
I like Elbow's idea of a teacherless writing class. It's like a book club but for writing. I think it's a great way for people who are not comfortable with others reading their writings to become comfortable with it. Another thing I like about this idea is that it tells you how to be supportive and helpful without being too critical of a member's writing. It's one thing to helped on something, it's another to be criticized for it. I also like how Elbow gave ideas on how to run the group and some example of what to write, because I know I would have no idea what to do if I were in a group like this, so it definitely helps.
I thought it was funny, too, how Elbow gave a way to "secretly destroy" the class itself. It's a contradiction because in the whole chapter he talked about how to get it started and how to make it work, then he gives a few paragraphs on how to destroy it. I thought it was hilarious.
All in all, I think this chapter was more of a "life lesson" rather than a informational chapter on "writing without teachers". But I think it was needed. Whether writing in a teacherless class, in a class with a teacher, or working in the real world, everyone should be able to work together, communication effectively, share and listen to ideas, and be helpful with their peers all while being polite, it is possible. I like to think of this as tough love: "The writing is great but this is how I think it could be improved."
I thought it was funny, too, how Elbow gave a way to "secretly destroy" the class itself. It's a contradiction because in the whole chapter he talked about how to get it started and how to make it work, then he gives a few paragraphs on how to destroy it. I thought it was hilarious.
All in all, I think this chapter was more of a "life lesson" rather than a informational chapter on "writing without teachers". But I think it was needed. Whether writing in a teacherless class, in a class with a teacher, or working in the real world, everyone should be able to work together, communication effectively, share and listen to ideas, and be helpful with their peers all while being polite, it is possible. I like to think of this as tough love: "The writing is great but this is how I think it could be improved."
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